I was just expecting it to start.. lol.. the whole cold start was the biggest reason I made this decision.. I live in maine.. its always cold.. hopefully when I get a few miles on it. it comes outta it..
I wouldn't count on it. Seems like these things work one way until you change something to make it act different. Sure they " self learn" to a certain extent but I don't think they fix themselves without help. One thing I notice is you do have to let the thing prime before you hit the start or it takes a bit more cranking to get it started. You can bump up the amount of fuel gets dumped when it primes. Maybe doing that would fix your cold start issue. Today was the first trip out of the garage since hooking up timing control. It did die on me once when I was just sitting idling in traffic. And it would've a couple other times but I caught it in time. So that's something I have to look at. Also I have discovered that if i just push in the clutch when slowing down sometimes it will die but if I push in the clutch while my foot is still on the throttle some and then let off it won't. There's got to be a way to fix that if I can find it. I was at the race track today and one of the guys had a car running that had his endorsement graphic on the side for www.efiexpert.com. This guy actually offers online classes for tuning an EFI. He only advertises Holley and FAST but I think most all these units are pretty similar. If nothing else it would be nice to have an expert resource to bounce questions off or even just to explain what this or that adjustment is going to do. He said the class was $75. Probably money well spent. Easy enough to buy a new tool but it would be great if you had somebody show you how to use it.
I think the self learning is over rated. From what I've read, it only self-learns the fuel mixture and then, only at relatively constant speeds. Timing, start-up, acceleration and deceleration all need to be programmed the old-fashioned way.
As for stalling under decel, have you looked at where your IAC position is at idle? if too low, that could cause your problem.
I found some very interesting Youtube videos relate to EFI and carbs v. EFI. I tried to post the links but it appears that did not work. If you do a simple video search you should find them easy enough.
One thing that was very interesting is that they couldn't get their EFI to work well with a dual plane intake but it was flawless with a single plane. No doubt there are many variables.
Another video shoe significant advantages in ease of tuning and hp gains using EFI.
The whole idea of a dual plane is to provide a better vacuum signal for a carb. I wouldn't think it would effect an EFI system that much unless maybe it confuses the MAP signal.
I have a car with it's factory rebuilt Q-jet and I still like my EFI better in every way except for the cost.
Adjusting my IAC is on today's to-do list. The bad thing about adjusting things on this is it has to be up to operating temp every time before you can do anything and with all this aluminum crap it takes forever to get there. I was looking at some of the software this morning and there is an area for decel fuel adjustment. This might be something that will help. The specs say that when you take your foot off the gas the fuel is cut off. Maybe in my case I still need a bit of fuel to flow even after I take my foot off. It seems to make the difference when I do it myself and disengage the clutch.
Adjust your IAC first. If the counts or percent (depends on how your system measures) is too low, you'll completely cut the air off when you let of the accelerator and the engine cannot compensate in time to avoid stalling.
Just got out today and adjusted the IAC. Saw a YouTube on how( gotta love YouTube). Nowhere in the intstallation or setup instructions did it say anything about how to do it( lame). It was way out of wack. It's in the ballpark now so I'm hoping that will take care of some of those issues I was having. That's for the advice John.
do you have a link to that u tube video? I seem to be having the same issues.. I cant find any tuning specs in the directions... it shows the read outs on the tablet but doesn't say if that's good or not..
I don't think this is the one but this guy kind of shows how to change the setting. https://youtu.be/f4WPiAloYtA You basically screw in the idle screw to lower the IAC setting and then cycle the key off and back on again to save it and re-set your TPS to 0. It took a couple of cycles to get mine down under 10%. The instruction say you want between 2 and 10. I have taken it out yet to see if it changed anything but at least it's set correctly now. So that's got to be better.
does your fuel pressure bleed off? mine done within a minute or 2 of shutting off the car.... I'm beginning to think the universal sump was a huge mistake..
it does prime.. if I turn the key on.. wait 5 seconds for the pump to shut off.. key off.. back on, wait 5 more seconds.. .off.. on.. then start...it starts easier... when I had the tablet on watching the fuel pressure I noticed it bleeds off quickly.. I'm just assuming that if it held pressure I wouldnt be having the start issue with waiting. I'm in maine.. its 20 degrees this morning and it'll be 65 in 4 hours... this whole upgrade was centered around easy starts no matter what the weather.... I see they sell tanks set up for efi.. I originally didn't go that route because it said 70 plus psi and the efi was saying 58.... I'm wondering if the bleed off is the sump kit.. or the efi itself...
You should be able to dial up the prime shot with more fuel if you need it. I know mine has a provision for it. I'm sure all of them do. Of course if you get too much then you run the risk of flooding the engine but it sounds like you might need more fuel initially.
Aw crap. I was going to drive my car to work yesterday. Pulled it out and shut it down to get my stuff. Restarted and got as far as the end of the driveway and she died. Restart, died again. Crap, out of gas. Well ok, so won't take it today. Put five gallons in it today and she fired up. Idled for awhile while I adjusted a couple of things. Then she died again. WTH? Started back up and the thing was freaking out. Started acting like I sucked up several valves or my timing chain jumped a couple of teeth. Knocking and backfiring and all hell. Tried several things and checked several others. Everything looked good. Decided I'd pull the distributor and go back to my regular HEI with no timing control. Half an hour later she's purring again( well as close as she gets to purring). Don't know what happened. Maybe like the ECU freaked out and the timing control feature retarded timing a butt load or something. Maybe one of the times it died the comp reset itself to some other off the wall settings. Not sure. Scared the hell out of me though. Was like the motor blew up or something. Going to try going a different angle at this thing see what I can do. The other dist was a kind of experiment. Seems that may have been a $75 fail.
Regarding losing prime, mine does the same, but I don't know how quickly. If you fuel pressure regulator works while the car is running, than it should bypass only enough fuel to reach the target pressure after shutting down. Most likely it's the fuel pump which should have a check valve. Mine takes only one key on cycle and probably three seconds to reprime so you must have something strange going on. Perhaps a leaking injector or bad regulator which could be causing your timing issue. Most EFI systems use timing as the primary means to control the idle speed and if you watch your diagnostics, the timing varies greatly even when the car is idling as it should. Perhaps a fuel problem was causing the timing to retard or advance too much in order to control timing.
I hadn't considered that the timing control feature is what is used to control idle speed. I would've thought it was an increase or decrease in fuel flow or somehow self adjusting the TPS position.
It's both, but the timing is used to smooth out the short term spikes and fuel is used over longer periods of time. I believe this is because idle speed reacts more quickly to timing changes. With it idling, look at your timing and you should see it moving up and down quite a bit.
Well I got my new doohickey in the mail yesterday so tomorrow I'm going to make another run at hooking up the timing control. We'll see if there are any lingering effects of last weeks episode. Going to hook up the laptop via the CANBUS cable and see if I can fine tune a couple other areas as well. Should be an interesting day.
I spoke with edelbrock... they told me that cycling the key on will reprime the system... and that the sump would not hold pressure.. its just frustrating theres no " normal" settings for cold starts... like a base setting.. I'm not sure where to start with cold start enrichment or crank fuel.. its completely trial and error... also there seems to be a lot of debate with timing... 18 initial.. 12 initial... ?.. I guess I was expecting a more detailed set up/instructions..
on goes the battle here... still fighting with starting issues.. its getting warmer now so its not as bad but only because its 50-60 instead of 10-20...runs pretty good when its warm although it does stumble a few times at idle here and there... anyways... the radio wont work when the car is running.. I'm assuming there is interference with the dizzy or new efi... it was working fine before I started this.. it plays perfect with the key on and the engine off.. but when its running it cuts in and out...
Don't feel bad things aren't going that great here either. I finally gave up trying to run timing control with one of these big body HEI's. I broke down and bought the summit branded pro billet knock off and adjustable rotor. Getting delivered on Tuesday. Now if this doesn't get me there the unit is going back to Holley for a checkup.
So the new pro billet dist didn't do the trick either. Installed it just like the instructions say. Same as it was. Started reading some info on the net about one thing and another. Called Holley and their tech said it sounds like RFI issues. Says two ways to go, run without timing control or buy their Dual Sync distributor because the Hall effect design isn't affected by EMI/RFI . I have a hard time believing something I can't see or touch so I figure he's just blowing smoke up my skirt to get me to spend the bucks for their dist. Read one article where the guy was having similar issues and he removed the alt belt and thing changed drastically. I figure WTH? Don't cost nothing. So I drop the belt off the alt and miracle of miracles the car starts and actually runs pretty well. Belt on, no run. Belt off, runs. WTF??? Ok so now I'm starting to believe there may be something to this " electronic noise" they keep talking about. So as of right now the pro billet is gong back, the car is going back to no timing control and I'm saving up another $150 to pay their blood money for the Holley distributor to manage these made up gremlins. I'm really hating electrical stuff right about now.
im not running timing control but I did change to a hall effect chip in my hei dizzy.. I have the car running pretty good.. I changed the radio and solved the cutting in and out issue... it was the radio.. all the wiring is exactly the same.. it was getting interference from the efi install... the retro sound had leads for the aux im thinking was acting like an antenna.. I don't think I solved the cold start issue either.. its just gotten warmer and the car is starting better.... still not what I was expecting... I was expecting it to start like a new car... If im being honest, atleast at this point im sorry I spent the money.. doesn't really start better or easier than a good tuned q jet
I have heard the horror stories from friends that made the switch to EFI. One friend even had to send the system back to the manufacturer. These friends are pretty technical and handy but couldn't get the car to run as good as it should. It sure is an expensive and time consuming venture and not the primrose path as it's advertised. The thing that gets me is I have a 1995 jeep with obd1 and it has never given any problems other than I had to change the crank sensor at 300,000 miles. Why can't an expensive aftermarket EFI system be made to be reliable and simple as an OEM system ?
We'll if you hop on one foot while mumbling the mechanics prayer and all the planets are aligned it will probably work like it's supposed to. I consider myself to be fairly handy in the garage but it's like trying to teach an old dog a new trick. Everything tends to be a struggle. Partially it's my lack of understanding and partially it's the lack of available information. Every new thing that comes up takes a week of searching to find out why it's happening and another week to find out there is something that can be done to fix it...or not. Lots of people are running these things now and presumably some are operating the way they were designed to. Some, like me, are struggling every step. I love learning something new but there quickly comes a point of diminishing returns. When the tech at Holley said, " you could just run without timing control" I was thinking I could've bought a pretty dam nice carb for a lot less than I spent on this gadget if that's all I wanted.
Jman, I have never heard of a Hall effect chip. Can you send me any info on it? Inquiring minds want to know.
Had a friend do this 6 years ago...tok several years to get it right...one main issue was gas tank....the pick up from it didn't like the original tank set up...on hills it would cut out...not enough baffles intank etc...after he installed in tank fuel pump , it got better..now finally its good. but he had all kinds of problems inititally
worst time was when we came back from the first FGF meeting in Estes Park...he got stuck in a long uphill in south Colorado....while were standing there (when someone went for gas to fill up tank so it could pick up..)...we noticed a sign :" Warning, bear crossing" !
im thinking that's one of my problems too.... the tank.. the sump kit bleeds off fuel pressure so its always fighting to get the pressure .. I don't think the in tank set up bleeds off... im gonna run it for a few weeks and see how it goes.... over all its just not what I was expecting.. they kinda market these things as quick and easy with no cold start issues... not the case so far..
im thinking that's one of my problems too.... the tank.. the sump kit bleeds off fuel pressure so its always fighting to get the pressure .. I don't think the in tank set up bleeds off... im gonna run it for a few weeks and see how it goes.... over all its just not what I was expecting.. they kinda market these things as quick and easy with no cold start issues... not the case so far..
If you got stock tank, I think its very well an issue
So after being dormant on this list for several years...like 7-10..I'm finally reviving my 1968 Firebird. I recently purchased the Tanks Inc. fuel tank (255 lph internal pump) along with the Sniper EFI system. Following this thread closely since I will be installing it at the end of this month (Firebird is getting bodywork and paint done currently).
Option 1 - Pin A - NEGATIVE SIDE OF COIL (non CDI Ignition) With standard inductive ignitions, the negative post on the coil can be used as a RPM Trigger Input Source. If using the Negative Side of the coil as an RPM Trigger Input, use only the Tan/Yel lead provided in Pin A of the tach input connector. This is the only wire used and connects to the negative side of the coil. DO NOT USE THIS SOURCE IF RUNNING A CDI BOX OR ANY TYPE OF IGNITION AMPLIFIER, ECU WILL BE DAMAGED. Option 2 - Pin B - CDI BOX IGNITION Hall type signal input. If using a Capacitive Ignition Box (CDI) or any type of ignition amplifier with a designated hall type tach output signal, remove the Tan/Yel wire and insert only the Wht/Blk wire into Pin B. The Wht/Blk wire is the only wire used; it connects to the Tach Output pin or wire on a CDI Box. NEVER CONNECT PIN B TO THE NEGATIVE SIDE OF COIL WHEN RUNNING A CDI BOX OR ANY AMPLIFIED IGNITION, ECU WILL BE DAMAGED. DO NOT CONNECT TACH PIN ON HEI TO PIN B, ECU WILL BE DAMAGED.
Option 3 - Pin B - DESIGNATED HALL TYPE TACH SIGNAL OR TACH ADAPTERS. The Tach output pin on HEI Distributors and some other ignition systems tach sources are very dirty and cannot provide a clean tach signal to the ECU. In these situations a replacement HEI Module MSD part #83647 or tach adapter with Hall type output signal is recommended. The Hall type Signal output from either of these sources would connect to Pin B on the tach input connector. On MSD distributors this is usually a grey wire and is provided on some Ready to Run distributors also. DO NOT CONNECT TACH PIN ON HEI TO PIN B, ECU WILL BE DAMAGED. Pin C Ground - Pin C is provided for a ground source if necessary for some tach adapters and Mag or Hall type sensors. Do NOT ground to the block. Pin D - Not
that's from the directions... option 3.. they make a big deal about that part in a few places calling it a hall type tach signal...
Had a friend do this 6 years ago...tok several years to get it right...one main issue was gas tank....the pick up from it didn't like the original tank set up...on hills it would cut out...not enough baffles intank etc...after he installed in tank fuel pump , it got better..now finally its good. but he had all kinds of problems inititally
worst time was when we came back from the first FGF meeting in Estes Park...he got stuck in a long uphill in south Colorado....while were standing there (when someone went for gas to fill up tank so it could pick up..)...we noticed a sign :" Warning, bear crossing" !
good call on this... I went back thru all the trouble shooting directions and one of the things was... older tanks causing random stalling... im gonna keep it near full and change the tank later in the season....
Somebody sent me an advert awhile back that had some sort of cells that filled with fuel and connected to the pickup tube in the tank so even at times of low fuel levels there was always an available supply. I wanna say it was Holley but not sure. Looked like a good way to make sure you kept an uninterrupted supply.
After trying three different distributors I bit the bullet and ordered Holleys Dual Sync dist with the Hall effect. They are coming out with something they call Hyper Spark that is cheaper( the SBC version is out now for $279 ) but I know it will be a year or more before they offer it in Pontiac form. And then it'll be $75 more than the SBC version anyway. So we'll see if it takes care of all those nasty EMI gremlins that have been making my life harder for too long. I haven't decided if I will continue to run my 6al box or not. I have a few days to do some homework on it before the new dist arrives.
Started the car up yesterday to check a few things out. Alternator unhooked( the only way it will run). It runs, not great, but it does run. It does seem to controlling the timing. I went to the wrecking yard today and picked up a cs130 alternator. Supposed to be more modern, less electronically noisy. We shall see if it makes any difference.
Update... Well surprise, the cs130 didn't do the trick. Tried a few other things that didn't work either. Tried running the battery charge wire all by itself from the alt to the batt, tried a new ground wire all the way from the batt to the block. A couple other things too. No Bueno. Boxed the unit today and fedexed it to Holley for them to give it a good look over. I swear something must be broke or burned out. We'll see what they have to say in a couple weeks.
As of now I couldn't recommend buying the Sniper. It just seems too sensitive. If I was going to do it again I'd buy the FITech. They seem to be a better product.
Called Holley today. They tested the unit and it failed so they said they replaced the ECU. They will ship it on Friday. I'll probably get it end of next week. We'll see.