the louver look is growing on me but i do wish they were more realistic looking

In the old days we called them Gills. I personally love all the things that differentiate our Ponchos from Chebbys. If you read the history of how the firebird came to be and how gm thrust the f-body on them last minute while canceling General manager John DeLorean's vision of a 2 seat sports car called the Banshee you will really come to appreciate how well the engineers and designers did in such a short time to make the f-body a ''Pontiac''.

On a side note.

Boy I feel way better about the condition of both my Firebirds compared to this eBay Camaro

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Chevrolet-Camaro/154296364321?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649


And to BarnBird I will have to take your word about the history, I can't read more then a line or two since my past head injury. And guys don't get me wrong I really like the First gen Firebirds but know that I grew up owning 67 and 68 camaros and they were my first love. So Firebirds must be special if I now own two of them and have given up my camaro dream for my Pontiac.

By the way I don't like the fake camaro louvers either, meaning I think they should be functional i do like the look

As the song says love the one your with. And stop cheating/looking at Camaro porn on the internet !

Thank you that is hilarious. i needed a laugh

68topless- I love the gills on the Birds! I was recently helping someone look for a bird, and he came across one that the guy put maro quarters on, and the value took a nose dive at that point..

I will put Firebird quarters back on it because I do realize the value in keeping it all ponrtiac. . Do you think its also a mistake to use 67 Firebird Quarters instead of the correct 68? I can guess your answer.

Anybody in the NH area have a frame jig I could borrow?

If you use '67 quarters, at least the '68 rear marker lights could be cut in at a later date by a future Owner. (Leave / protect the wires)
For me, the rear quarter marker lights are the reason I have owned 18-20 '68 'birds over the years, and only one '67 'bird.
To each his own, it's your car, do what you want.

Well the shell i think i am going to restore doesn't have any usable wiring. Also I don't have any marker light assemblies since priors used camaro quarter skins but I think I have one lens.

To be honest I have never seen them lit up.

They do look better then the 68 camaro marker lights and is why I had only 67's.

I did not actually buy these cars. they both came to me through barter and trading trying to get back a long lost 67 RS/SS i had at the beginning of my marriage 30 years ago!

First came the 68 shell with no drivetrain or front sheet metal. it had a camaro fiberglass front clip and at that time I had a 454 and was going to make it a camaro clone (sorry)
I traded a 55 Chevy 4 door roller empty big project for the 68 shell.

But then the complete parts car came to me with a running and yard driving 350 auto and was told posi but haven't confirmed.
I traded my 454 and a super t10 for the complete parts car.

When the 68 parts car came to me i realized I am not meant to get another camaro and its time to have a Firebird. I have never owned any Pontiacs.

I would love to build my 67 400 i scored ($150 with 6x-4 heads) and convert to a 4 speed as i am old school. But first I need to make the shell a roller again
To bad there isn't a hand me down donation section here. I am not to proud for handouts but am appreciative of course.

DIY inspiration

...

. . .

[img]https://firstgenfirebird.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/19000/filename/35.JPG[/img][img]https://firstgenfirebird.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/18995/filename/2.JPG[/img]. . .

Happy bleeding!

I don't get it Amervo? Except for the injuries is all to familiar to me.

What's not to get? We can all use a little inspiration especially in the dead of Winter. Heck it worked for me even though I am not involved in body work on my car I just transposed my hand with my knuckles wrapped in electrical tape, the mechanics go to band aide.

Thought i mentioned i literally have some brain damage and things that are obvious to others are not always obviously to me.
We were talking about 68 and 67's louvers and when the 69 was posted i didn't catch on

I understand, I was just helping a fellow northeastern brother out.

Well today I got back in the garage with my healing injured wrist determined to find out if i do in fact have a limited slip or not. Well for once i lucked out and found both tires spinning in the same direction. Yay!

To be clear i didn't find them spinning i jacked up the rear-end and turned one tire by hand and saw the other turning in the same direction. You guys get the idea.

How do I find out my ratio?
Does a posi get special gear oil?

First off you need to Figure out what it is if you want to decode the 2 letters on the rear of the drivers axle tube by the brake line clip. Firebirds used specific 8.2 Diffs for 7 8 and 9 And you can make them all fit..7 used single leaf but can be converted so the best way to tell is there will be 2 cast in hoops on either side of the top of the carrier housing. 8 does not have these and has multi leaf spring perches. 9 looks identical to 8 except you will find 2 dents that look like they were made with a sledge hammer on top of both axle tubes just to the inside of the backing plates to give more room for the snubbers. But you could also have a Chevy 12 bolt or 8.5 or who knows. the rear cover shape will tell you everything you need to know. If you do have a 8 or 9 8.2 and it has a gear ratio 3,3somthing or higher stock then you hit first gen gold with a heavy duty 4 pinion Safety track with 4 spider/Pinion gears, 2 side gears and a nodular housing. As far as fluid it takes regular hypoid oil with a separate additive for the cones in the locking part. if you cant find the axle code if it is an 8.2 you can use the count the turns method or just pull the cover and if oem gears the numbers for the ring and pinion will be stamped into the side of the ring gear and then you just do the math.

thanks barnbird,
I decided to pull the cover sometime to change the fluid. I was going to try the axle code route but then i though what if someone changed the gear set?

I also decided to replace the blown brake lines on the parts car so next time i move it i can stop

So I made a few discoveries on the rear-end so far. First I tried to remove the right rear brake drum and of course no go. It must have taken me an hour solid of hammering on the drum until it finally gave up and came off. At that time I noticed the flattened spot on the axle tube for the bump stop. Also the wheel cylinder was seized beyond belief. Another 20 min of hammering just to see if it would free up and yes I know I need to replace it. Then I discovered the worst axle bearing slop I have ever seen. Between that and the pinion seal leak I guess an overhaul is in order. I have determined I do have a BOP 8.2 but that is all I know. I tried cleaning off the axle tube to the left of the diff cover down to bare metal and can't find anything. The other brake drum came right off as it should.


Is the brake line that comes from the front proportioning valve to the rear T junction over the rear end a larger diameter then the ones that go to the wheel cylinder?
I know on my Chevy truck that is the case. All 3/16 except that main line front to back. Can't remember but i think its 1/4

Why do they use limited slip with highway gears? I always thought it was for off the line hook up drag race applications. Wouldn't highway gear posi make it bog on hard launches?

Are you guys using timken bearings or store brands?

Where is your favorite place to source parts?

Good job Frankie. Next time you run into a a drum that hard to pull just cut the hold down pins from behind and it will come right off and saves a lot of beating and prying. Don't spend any money on that rear rebuild until you pull the cover. At that time see how much fluid comes out and check for signs of lack of fluid such as bluing and play. Unlike a Chevy Diff. the rear axle bearings are not lubed by the Diff. lube so it is not a sign of low fluid. Also the Pinion seal leak is common and even when just seeping creates a big mess. When replacing seal make sure to mark the Pinion flange and nut and retighten just a little past afterwards so as not to change the Pinion depth on the ring gear. The 2 letter code was not always stamped very deep and with years of surface rust sometimes disappears. All the manufactures marketed there Traction lock setups for traction in mud snow ect. even though we look at it through high performance eyes. This is why you will find so many Posi, Limited slip traction lock ect. rears in old station wagons. By the way usually when I found a Bearing completely smoked as you describe I would also find that the inner race was spun on the shaft hopefully not the case for yours.

Thanks Barnbird for all the great advice! I had no idea about the axle bearings not being lubed by the gear oil. Glad you said that.

So I need a sealed bearing then I assume?

Does the axle four bolt flange have seals as well?

If I find the bearing race was spun as you mentioned then is the axle toast? ( I always get the worst cases and uncommon situations)
Or is there a repair type bearing?

I was really glad to see I have my first bolt in axles. I have actually had my c clip axle come out when driving (not fun)

Since one axle bearing is toast I assume I should just do both with their seals?

Also do the carrier bearings get sloppy? If I have fluid when I remove the cover and no obvious damage is it safe to assume all is well in there?

1. yes sealed bearing. 2 Axle seal is in tube behind Bearing. 3. no repair bearing that I am aware of those are for a bearing w/o an inner race. 4. I always replace both outer axle bearings all seals inspect everything and new fluid with every unknown rear that has sat for a long period unused. 5. Physical as well as visual inspection. The carrier and pinion Bearings last a loooong time as long as there is no water and proper lube. Also check your vent, it is on top of the axle tube. I usually find them stuck on old cars which will push the fluid past the seals when at speed.

Gotcha thank you. Hopefully I will pull the cover this weekend. I guess plan B would be to buy the 67 BOP peg-leg highway geared rear on Craigslist not to far from me.

https://nh.craigslist.org/pts/d/rochester-1967-pontiac-firebird-10-bolt/7260747728.html


I can't seem to find a definite answer on what size the intermediate brake line is? Front to back
Is it 3/16?
Is it 1/4?
Or does it depend whether you have disc brakes and or power brakes?

So I made a few discoveries today. First since the pinion seal had been leaking I wanted to pull my driveshaft to check the pinion bearing slop. Well since it had leaked the u joint bolts has grime and no rust! That was awesome easy to unbolt. I can't feel any up.down or side to side movement but there is like a backlash movement rotating clockwise and counterclockwise, hard to tell how much since its so easy to spin now without the trans attached in neutral. Which leads to next question.
In neutral there was a lot of drag trying to spin the tires by hand. Is this normalish or is it real bad?
Next when I removed the diff cover I was happy to see gear oil pouring out. Guesstimate about a quart but didn't measure it.
I found no evidence of water or any damage or abnormal colors on the ring gear teeth
There was some extra thick greasy oily substance at the bottom of the diff but i found zero metal chunks or particles.
I can't see the pinion well enough to check for visual damage or id markings but I do count 37 teeth on the ring gear and again no visible id markings except one strange one.
Is it safe to assume I have a 336 ratio?
What the heck kind of nameless no marking posi chuck do i have?
And last but not least I found a great present in the trunk. A complete set of front windshield chrome trim i had no idea i had . And its definitely nice enough for a driver

One thing I forgot to add last time, when replacing the Pinion seal make sure and use rtv gasket maker on the outside metal frame of the seal before installing. I can't tell you how many Pinion seal leaks I've found that were not from the seal contact area but the outer edge of the metal to metal contact area, Also be sure to remember and mark the Pinion nut and count or mark threads and only tighten a little past or you will smoke the gears, It is normal for a Safety trac or Posi rear to turn stiffer in neutral then a standard Diff. a little backlash between the ring and Pinion is normal. On the 8.2s I normally find the numbers stamped from the factory such as 37-11 on the side of the ring gear. I don't remember seeing the scribed markings in your picture but may be my memory. I can't make out what it says by your pictures but may be a sign of an aftermarket gear set. To count the Pinion teeth you need to clean off the face and reach in with needle nose or grabber tool and mark a tooth edge then it's easy to count from their. You are right on the assumption of it being 3:36 with a 37 tooth ring gear if factory and it has a 11 tooth Pinion. It's hard to tell from the pictures but it looks like a 4 Pinion to me just count the spider/Pinion gears, 4 +2 side axle gears = heavy duty sought after diff. Which came standard with 3:36 and numerically higher gears. In good shape they should fetch between 12 to 1500 dollars. Either way if you have a 3.36 that is a great all around ratio when not using an overdrive Transmission.

Thanks Barnbird,
I think you miss understood me about the drag I felt. The drag is in the transmission in neutral i believe. Since removing the driveshaft the rear end spins super easy just grabbing the yoke.

Second thank you for the tips on the pinion seal replacement I will be sure to use the suggested rtv on the metal part of the seal. Any particular color RTV?

What weight diff fluid is recommended? 80-90? what type of limited slip additive? Is it 3 quarts to fill it? plus the additive?

next up is pull the axle!

I re read and you are right. But it still holds true a Traction lock rear turns harder in neutral and easier with driveshaft disconnected.. 2. If you read the rtv specs each color tells you what they are designed for. As far as weight and quantity that is readily available info. Hear is a great source, the 68 Pontiac service manual on Harold B's site https://www.firebird400ho.com/mdocuments-library/ Then you can roughly buy the correct amount and fill to the check/fill hole. Before you pull the axle you can do a rough check on the condition of the locking cones and springs by grabbing hold of the axle face while someone is holding the other one and twist to see how easy the axles break apart. This is a subjective test because if you have two weak people it can change the outcome.

Well I already pulled the axle so i can;t do that cone test? Just is well i am a solo act and my wife wouldn't be able to help .
So I have my first big (to me) problem. You were right in that the axle with the toast bearing is out to lunch as well. The bearing was wiggling around and caused a huge undercut where the bearing is supposed to be pressed on.
Now what do i do?
Buy a new axle?
Two axles?
Have it repaired?
Buy that Craigslist rear-end i mentioned for parts?
Are all bop 8.2 axles the same spline and length?
Also i couldn't figure out how to use my HF press in a way to remove the bearing and spacer so i had to cut it off.
Is that usually the case or did i miss something?
Then i panicked about the other axle so i pulled it as well. That bearing has a small amount of play but i am assuming the axle is fine.
So i really only need one axle

Good thing you found it. In 1977 when mine was making a terrible noise in the back when turning, I had Mr. Goodwrench look at it. They found the frozen bearing on mine had cut the axle to 1/2 it's normal diameter.

I thought that is what you might find. When a bearing starts to fail in the rear it is not all that loud and can be hard to hear especially if you have loud mufflers. when the bearings start to gall they get hot and actually weld themselves together which then forces the inner race to start spinning on the axle. That is why I always recommend changing them with unknown history. Cutting them off is fine and is actually the fastest way to remove. As far as I know all the axles have the same dimensions on 7,8,9 8.2 rears. I have heard of unobtainable axles being repaired But if I were you I would price a new one shipped and also see if you can get the open diff. on Craig's list for 100 to 150. whatever the seller thinks that is all it is worth and if you let it sit I can almost guarantee it won't sell for what he wants. Then do what makes the best sense for you. The easiest way to avoid that scenario with a bearing is to jack it up and check for play once and awhile, it would have avoided ruining the axle.

Also I would like to know, are both axle tubes flattened on top just to the inside of the backing plates. It looks from the pictures like a 4 Pinion diff did you count and confirm? If it is the Heavy duty 4 Pinion like I suspect it has the stronger Nodular iron housing and you can confirm this by looking for a capitol N cast into the side or top of it. Also should have mentioned you can check the health of the locking mechanism by also putting it in gear if standard or park if an auto and raising both wheels off the ground and grabbing a tire and turning. If in good shape you wont be able to turn it unless your an animal.

Weird thing is the bad bearing did still spin as well as spin on the axle bearing surface, at lease it did before i cut it.
The bearing seal was blown as well.
first thing i did was remove the spacer so i could tell what i was looking at. That same side also had the seized wheel cylinder and paper thin shoes. not sure if that could be related to the bearing failure?

In any case I never drove the car more then ten feet in my yard so i had no way of hearing the bearing. plus its open and holy rotted headers!

That bearing failure is also what prompted me to check the other side. plus i wanted to know if i need just one or both axles.

My dilemma on buying a used vs new is one i need to pinch every dollar but more because i am worried about having axles of two different qualities as well as one new and one old. Would that make the stock one more likely to brake during a hard launch?

As far as the Craigslist open 8,2 i have been watching this guys ads for a long time, he also has some 67 doors and i bought headers from him last year when i found mine were rotted.

By the way i did check both rear bearings holding the tire and trying to move it up and down and both sides i could not detect movement. It wasn't until i was trying to remove the drum that i saw the hub moving.

On my Chevy truck i could hear the axle make noise when cornering and could feel movement when grabbing the tire.And those axle bearings were just starting to go and were not horrible,

yes and all i was really trying to do was fix the brakes

Barnbird i though i already mentioned I saw the flat spots on the axle tubes on both sides right under the frame rail bump stops?

I have not found the big N yet on the top of the housing but then its kind of hard for me to get my head in there.

I did some research and found the identical posi chuck on the GTO forum i was trying to find pictures of four pinion chucks.

From what i read the four pinion is the heavy duty version you mentioned and should have the side gears in there as well.

My eyes are not great so looking at large pictures helps me.

You did mention about seeing the flat spot on one side but I just wanted to confirm that you are working with a 69 rear. No need to look at pictures on the internet to know if 4 Pinion. Just look in the carrier window and count the gears. In your pictures above the axle you can see them in the third and fourth pictures they are the little gears in the center of carrier. as mentioned some people call them spider gears. The side gears are to the side and the axles go through them. What I see in your pictures is a 4 Pinion but just want you to confirm in person. the 4 Pinion gears are on something that looks like the center cross part of a u-joint in the center of the carrier. How much snow did you get? I got a foot at the house and 25 minutes west in the Berkshire mountains where I mostly snowmobile we ended up with almost 2 feet.

I know you did not drive the car it was just advice for you in the future and for anyone else reading this without a mechanical background. The reason you could not feel the play is because your drum was so tight because of the brake problems, presumably people won't be driving cars in that shape at least without knowing and will be able to feel the up and down play of a bearing on the way out. The Bearing will fluctuate from slightly welding it self together jamming up to grinding/breaking itself apart many times on it's way to total destruction. As far as breaking axles is this going to be a drag car on slicks with a high end torque and horsepower motor? if not don't worry about it. And yes if some one drove that car to long with a very tight drum It will and I have seen it fry the grease right out of a bearing, we used to get them towed in when I was a young mechanic. One time I was sent out on a wrecker call to pick up a car on the highway that had caught fire in the right front from pushing it to far with a tight caliper. luckily someone had stopped with an extinguisher and saved the car but was an expensive repair. the Bearing had seized on that to and spun /ruined the spindle.