Hmmmm. A head scratcher for sure. Only two things can be happening. Either the flex plate is wrong or the starter is wrong. If the engine and transmission were separated [as in engine swap] then it is possible the flex plate is not correct or mounted wrong. Then of course starters are easily swapped so who knows what that one actually belongs to. This may actually be why the car was parked for so long? Someone did the engine swap, and the starter kept getting hung up? What I know about Pontiac flywheels is that they are drilled so they can only go on one way- the right way. I have swapped endless flywheels between engines and never a problem, even manual flywheels. I would think it is safe to assume the flywheel is OK. But starters are a different story. Olds and Pontiac interchange. All others mount to the passenger side. All Pontiac V-8 starters interchange except for the 301 which bolts up but is much smaller. The only thing I can think of is getting another correct Pontiac starter and seeing if it works better. If not then there is a different problem.
Now I'm super frustrated. Got a brand new starter and it's doing the same thing. Seems like when I hold it flush against the top its nice and square until the last thread when I'm tightening it down then that last thread kicks the back down and the front up closer to the flexplate. I'm sure I'm just forgetting some stupid dumb dumb [censored] but damned if I can figure it out. Grrrrr
I wish I was closer so I could help. This makes no sense. Can you take some pics of the block surface and the starter surface? I went back and looked at the flywheel pic. You never touched it, right? Are you using the front mounting bracket? It usually disappears over time. Is there a longer threaded end of a bolt sticking out the front of the starter? There is a short steel bracket that mounts to the block and to that single longer bolt head. It gives support to the motor end of the big fat Pontiac starter. Plenty of guys get along fine without that bracket but the factory felt it was needed. When you say it kicks the back down that bracket may prevent that.
So when I googled it it says there should be a bracket. I honestly can't remember if there was or not and I dint have a oic if that area that shows it. I looked through all my parts and don't have anything that looks like that and don't have anything that I don't remember where it goes. So probably never had it. I took the Solenoid out so I could try to dial it in. Thought if the Solenoid wasn't in I could find the sweet spot of where the pin would jump in and out with little resistance. Tried setting it wuth a wire spacer. I'll attach some pics. When I would get it where is slid onto position I couldn't get it to go back without changing the angle. No matter how smooth it went I'm. Then when I changed the angle to where it would come out the next stroke was off again. I will get some pics of tge surface tomorrow
So here's a weird question, since I'm doing this starter test with no spark plugs not expecting to to start, wouldn't it be normal for the pinion to stay engaged? Isn't it supposed to stay engaged until the engine starts and then the flexplate will spin faster than the pinion causing it to retract? If that's the case then there probably isn't anything wrong except my lack of knowledge?
No, the pinion will stay extended for as long as the key is in the START position. That is because the starter drive is actuated by the solenoid. In everyday use it is instinctive to release the key to the RUN position so the starter doesn't stay engaged. There is something inside to let the engine run without wrecking the pinion if still engaged. Like an over-running gear release. I forget what my rebuilder guy called it. Like I said, that bracket often goes missing after the first starter removal. Not uncommon at all. They are on Fleabay pretty cheap though. Looking at the last pic it almost looks like the ring gear is wrong tooth count. Did you ever find out the final history of that car? When was the 350 put in? When was it parked?
They have both passed so I don't know when the motor was put in. Before she got it, I know that. It has been garaged fir the last 25 years fir sure. From the numbers and markings it's a 1970 350 yu code from a pontiac tempest. But has the 409 exhaust manifolds, probably from the original 400.o wondered if the teeth count was different since it won't go right back in and out. Guess I'll see if I can still count that high, lol
It should be 166 teeth. The flywheel/ring gear has been the same from 1964 to 1981. The only difference has been the change from the 1964-1976 large register to the mid 1976-1981 small register [crankshaft hole]. The 301 was balanced differently but still basically the same.
Probably because the flex plate is different between a Turbo 400 trans and the two speed trans the OHC-6 and 350 got. The Turbo 350 came later and then the flex plate was drilled for both torque converter hole patterns. I have used the same steel manual flywheel on a 350, 400, and a 455.
What's going on os&u? How's the tilt steering project going? I've got another question for you. What is this doo hicky on the ignition coil? Can't seem to find anything on it online. The wire was broken like that before so I'm wondering if it was needed.
Well after some more research, determined it's a resistor. Still unclear if I need it. One article says you need it if your car has points. But I'm not sure if I do or not.
Looks like that coil is cracked. Yes, it is a resistor/condenser/capacitor. It is there for radio interference. The pulsing of the points and coil make RFI [Radio Frequency Interference] that the AM radio picks up as static. Remember these cars were built before FM radio was a thing. I don't know about you but I automatically dump the points distributor and change over to a GM HEI system. No more points to replace and a much better spark.The bigger HEI distributor cap is a tight fit to the firewall but a little massaging with a hammer makes for some room. The only other thing is that the resistance wire from the firewall connector to the coil has to be replaced with a heavy 10 gauge 12 volt wire. It is a black wire with silvery strands. The HEI needs a fat 12 volts to work. The resistance wire is there because the points last longer on 6 volts so that wire reduces the 12 volts to 6 volts. But for easier starting the other wire on the coil is 12 volts. So when you start it gets 12 volts but as soon as you release the key from Start to Run, the 6 volts takes over. You can either remove the bulkhead connector and unpin the resistance wire and replace with a 10 gauge wire, or cut it right there and splice in the 10 gauge wire. On later cars that wire is known as the 'pink' wire. The tilt column is coming along nicely. I found the parts I needed. I have taken it apart so many times I can do it in my sleep. But it is so rare I really want to get it operational. I also got my power top to work. Just wait until you get around to THAT nightmare. I never realized how complicated a convertible is. The tilt thread is here: Tilt column rebuild If you do decide to keep the points then I remember we had the best performance by using something like the Mallory Volt Master Coil and the Mallory Super Condenser. By using that huge condenser the points lasted a very long time without pitting. It is so big it must be mounted outside the distributor.
So looking at the gm hei online they seem to range in price from $50 to $450. You have a suggestion for one you've had good luck with that won't break the bank?
Yikes, I completely forgot you had that! Now, what is under the distributor cap? A magnetic pickup? Do you know if it even works? Does it work with the 6 volt resistor wire or was that removed and replaced with a 12 volt wire? Some points replacement systems used the 6 volt wire or a separate ceramic resistor. Some used 12 volts. Try bench testing it. I do that all the time to test MSD boxes. Mount the distributor in a bench vise. Wire it up with a battery as if it was in the car. Spin the shaft by hand and see if it makes spark. Be sure to ground the battery to the vise and then the spark wire can fire at that. Don't get bit! If it does work I guess keep it. If not any GM HEI from 1975 to 1981 for a Pontiac or Oldsmobile will work just fine. We used to grab them from junkyard cars but those can be scarce nowadays. The GM HEI spark plug wires are good but there are many aftermarket upgrades available.
I went back and found this schematic I had forgotten about. [the first part of my screen name is very appropriate] Looks like there is a separate ballast resistor in the system. Not needed if the car has the stock resistance wire. It also has the magnetic pickup under the cap. If it all still works I saw use it. Maybe upgrade to a high energy coil and wires.
You tell me, lol. I'm having a hard time figuring out this whole distributor thing. I'm an R&R kind ulof mind. I can remove and replace about anything. But not knowing the insides has me lost.
Those are points and condenser. Where are the Stinger guts? This does not compute. There should be a magnetic pick-up coil and a reluctor wheel under there. Was the Stinger even hooked up? Maybe it failed and someone back-fitted the points. The electronic ignitions back then had a lot of teething issues. Even the early GM HEI used to fail so much they advised keeping a new ignition module in the glove compartment. Much later they discovered that it was necessary to apply a schmear of dialectric grease under the module. That way it passed the heat to the heat sink base of the distributor and then it lasted a long time.
Was the Stinger wired in or just the distributor as is? They can't both work at the same time. The very early MSD 5 box worked with the points in place. Later ones assumed you had HEI or some other electronic ignition and worked with those. I gave my MSD 5 to my cousin who has a 1969 Baracuda still running points. For now you can use the points and just get it running. Those look pretty clean but I would check them for pitting, if so maybe get a new set with a new condenser. I don't know how old you are but have you ever set up points? There is a mechanical setting you do with a feeler gauge, I think it was .019". That will get you running. But the better way is with a dwell meter. See that little knob that points to the window on the cap? That is for sticking an Allen wrench in to adjust the dwell while the engine is running. You attach a dwell meter to the coil and set the dwell [time the points are closed] to 30°. I would try to get a better coil too. That one looks cracked and it is pretty old. There are much better ones available. Referring again to the Stinger sheet, without the magnetic pick-up and reluctor it is useless. And if it failed electronically then it is just junk. Just know it was a very highly regarded ignition system back in the day. Once the HEI's hit the junkyards there was no need for aftermarket systems. The HEI really is king. For those that want the points distributor to look stock then the conversion kits are very useful. Probably the best and most available is the Pertronix Ignitor kit. It fits under the small points cap and looks stock, but makes tremendous spark.
I'll be 53 this month and never messed with point. Of course my first car and oldest car till now was a 76 Toyota corolla with the mighty 1600cc engine in it. Never learned points but learn how to drive a car with no power behind a tow rope. I swear that thing broke down more than it ran. Guess it was worth the $400. Loads of fun. As far as this mess, I honestly don't know what the owner was trying. The other day was the first time I ever opened the distributor. But oh well I will just drink that headache away tonight and tomorrow the new hei with internal coil will be hear. Allegedly a one wire hook up. We shall see.
Good move. An HEI is indeed a single wire hook-up. BUT- that wire MUST be at least 12 gauge and 10 gauge is better. At the firewall bulkhead connector the resistor wire [black/silvery threads] will not work. You can either pull the connector and re-pin it for a heavier wire, or cut and splice it as close as you can. Or, run a dedicated ignition wire from inside through the firewall somewhere. Getting at the bulkhead connector is a chore and really should be done with the fender off. For now, just to get it running, wire the HEI straight to the battery with a 20 amp inline fuse and an ON/OFF switch. You can wire it properly later. On the HEI there is a squarish part sticking out of the cap. Underneath there are five male terminals. Three closest to cap go to the module that is inside. That will have a three wire connector and should come already hooked up. Then the two left are for the 12 volt power and the tachometer. The 12 volt 'pink' wire is on the right and the grey tach wire is on the left. Some tach equipped cars came with a two wire connector but most used two single connectors. Remember what I said about firewall clearance. If you don't make some room, engine motion can break the cap and/or distributor. If you bench-test the HEI be careful. I have seen the spark jump over a foot! It bites! Hey Oly, I am glad to see you are closing in on success. Hang in there.
Well when I look at it I still see a long way to go. Just setting my goal for the short term of getting it running then a shirt rest and reset. (Make more money). Hey man again, I want to thank you for all your help. You drink at all? Tell me what you drink and shoot me your address and I will send one you way. My pleasure.
You are very welcome. No need, I don't drink anymore. I used to brag I'm 60 years old and take no meds. Now I am almost 70 and on a crapload of meds. I decided I want to stay alive and keep taking my kids and grandkids fishing. So ask away because once Fluke season opens I will be hard to find.
Fluke huh? You must be near the ocean. I got a couple local places I like to fish but here in kansas it's mostly bass and catfish. Is fluke good eating? My dad had a friend send him some salmon shark that was excellent
I am in NYC, Queens is on Long Island. I stay here for the fishing, believe it or not. I learned on freshwater in PA but once you catch salt water fish there is no going back. Fluke is what we call Summer Flounder. Down South they are just Flounder. We have Winter Flounder too but the Fluke are a toothy gamefish. All are excellent eating. And of course we have Striped Bass and Bluefish. If you ever hook a really big Bluefish your arms will think you hooked a 455 Super Duty! This is my big fish cooler- look at those dentures! Take your finger right off. This fish was 22".
Holy hell. Ya saltwater fishing is on my bucket list. Just afraid if I go, I'll never come back. Especially if I went down in Louisiana. Love me some Cajun food. But queeens ny??? You must be a hard MFer, I don't think you could pay me to go to new York. Are you too far north for peacock bass? I've seen shows where they are over 20lbs and fight like he'll. Wufes parents rv in the winter and go to Florida so may have to drop in on them sometime and hunt the peacock. One day... back to getting tge engine running, lol. Do I need the alternator to start it on a stand? Same for the distributor, well obviously i need the distributor but is tgere a way to wire it out? how can I wire them to where I don't have to put it back in? Do I need belts on? Just splice in and lengthen whatever over to the stand? I don't have a cherry picker on hand. Have to rent one so can't just put it in and pull it out whenever the fancy tickles me. Want to re-do some if the wiring while the engines out. But I am now obsessed with hearing it run so I'll do whatever I have to.
Last edited by Oly; 04/03/2306:35 PM. Reason: Forgot a sentence
I used to use a spare sub-frame for testing engines. I have seen them run on a stand and they say it is safe because the recoil doesn't react with the block. I am not sure about that. Maybe chain it down to be extra safe? The 455 in my car right now is hooked up with the HEI and just the 12 volt 'pink' wire going to an ON/OFF toggle switch and then right to the battery. The battery is hooked to the starter and grounded to the block. A wire is hooked from the + battery post to a momentary push button on the dash and then to the 'S' terminal on the starter. It is all the engine needs to run. I run a fuel line from an outboard motor portable 6 gallon tank to the fuel pump. I did slip-fit a short fan belt over the crank pulley and the water pump pulley. I have a radiator and hoses in place with the heater hoses tied together. I can run it a short while without overheating. You know as our waters are getting warmer we are seeing Southern species more often. My daughter caught a 42 lb Cobia a couple of years ago. Hey, it takes some tough fish to swim around NYC. Like this guy:
Hell ya boss, you da man. Nice fish. I'll try your set up or something similar when amazon quits dicking me around gets me my distributor that was supposed to be here today
