On the roof of my 68 bird I have about a dozen or so small bubbles. I have a large bubble (about the side of a pea) on the pass side corner just below the rear window, some small bubbles along the nose of the hood.
My question is this,,, how long do I have until the cancer spreads to the point where fixing it becomes more than a surface sander and some fill?
The car is never driven in the rain, snow, or any other inclimate weather. It is garage kept and my garage is heated/cooled.
So, how long do I have before I have to fully strip her down and re-paint?
I refuse to allow this cancer to eat my baby away, just want to know if I can wait till next fall?
Joe, In my opinion a bubble is never fixable with surface sanding and fill. 99% of the time, a bubble is rust through. It's safe to say between now and next fall you will loose some metal. If the metal that you will loose is something you will have to replace anyway it doesn't matter much. Sorry bud, but that's the straight and narrow. Jim
Was the car painted recently? If so, it could be moisture coming back up, w/o rust... I had that happen on the trunk of my 63 Mini Cooper after I was hit in the rear...it came after about 2 months...reason was it was too humid when they painted it...
but otherwise see Jims post abv... a bubble means rust usually w hole... repair = cut out ,repair ,repaint...
The paint was on the car when I bought it about a in aug of 04" So I assume that any moisture would have worked its way out by then. This is the second "visible" coat of paint on the car. Under this coat there is red, and who knows after that? It is a pretty decent paint job too, so I am a little shocked to see this. I am just worried that the car is going to need a full strip and re-paint. I will do it right if thats what needs to happen. Just want to accuratly asses my problem and options. I will try and take some shots of the bubbles and post tonight so you can see what I am dealing with. Man, I feel sick to my stomach right now
Joe, One very common cause of a bubble is a problem with the body filler. When some people don't take enough time or simply don't understand filler they get air bubbles in the filler. In 1 to 5 years these air bubbles work to the surface and cause the paint to bubble. This is the most likely cause of the bubbles on the roof. The front edge of the hood could be this same problem too. The bubbles you have below the bottom edge of the window are the most likely to be rust through. In my opinion, the whole back half of your car and the hood needs to be painted. The cause of the bubbles needs to be found and until you do the sanding it's just about impossible to tell how bad it is. The good part is black is easy to match and your doors and fenders are good. Jim
Thanks Jim. It’s hard to tell in the pictures but unfortunately, my car isn’t just black, it’s black with metal flake. Matching the paint would be very tough and I was planning on a color change anyway,,, just not this soon. Understanding filler? If you don’t mind can you elaborate on this? I have never painted a car before so I am new to all this. I understand the process of prep, but I have never done it myself. I have shot a few generators in my time but never anything that needed to really look sharp.
I am not totally against stripping and painting the car,,, I just really didn’t plan on doing it so soon after buying it. I was thinking 2 or 3 years down the road. Ho hum, guess this may have to get worked into the budget somehow? Wife is gonna love this one :rolleyes: I need to get out the chap stick because I have some serious butt kissin to do. It’s her birthday on Wednesday too. Better wait until after that Thanks for your help. Oh and any advice is greatly appreciated. I am a little freaked out about this whole thing right now.
Joe, Body work is a very complex art form. I, being artistically challenged, have struggled to learn the art. I have wasted more paint then anyone I know. It takes a lot of "understanding". What I meant when I wrote that you have to "understand" filler is you must understand it's limitations. One major limitation is air mixed into it when you stir it. If there is one tiny air bubble there will eventually be a paint bubble. This is the reason that you try to keep the layer as thin as possible. You can imagine how much easier it would be to have an air bubble in a 1/4 inch layer than there would be in a few millimeter layer. Jim
Some more info on body filler. Most body fillers don't typically "bubble", they "map" the repair area. What this means is that if the body filler is applied too thick and has not fully cured (this is a catalyzed product), it will continue to do so until fully cured and it will shrink under the paint which causes the repair to "map" or show where the body filler was feather-edged under the paint. The other thing that happens with body filler is that it can be affected by primer and paint. If the repair shop used regular body filler but no Metal Glaze (Fibre Glass-Evercoat product) to seal the body filler, the body filler will be affected by the solvents in the primer and paint put on top of it - another way the repair "maps".
If you have rust coming through, you will typically see raised irregular spots coming through the paint. IMO, if it has been as long as you say since it was painted, then you probably have rust coming through due to improper metal prep and/or filler left on unprepped metal too long without being sealed and it absorbed moisture and is now rusting through again.
As a former bodyshop owner who has gone through 100s of gallons of filler, I will say that it's almost certainly rust in every case. Filler is a lot more forgiving than Jim's experience may indicate and a tiny air bubble will not necessarily manifest into a bubble. Poorly cleaned or improperly repaired metal is perhaps a secondary cause. Brazing flux residue is notorious for causing bubbles and most good shops will remove any found brass these days. A third possible cause is improperly mixed filler, but there is such a big lattitude in the mix ratio that you have to get it really wrong to cause this. Moisture trapped in the filler, poor paint prep or adhesion are yet other possible causes.
If you're going to repaint and change color anyway, you might as well start saving your money for a complete overall. I would find a shop you like and get an estimate so that you can begin budgeting.
A buble in the filler won't work its way to the surface, and the reason filler should be lesss than a quarter inch is that greater thicknesses tend to fall out; also, the thicker filler doesn't loose its voc's quickly, causing shrinking/mapping as mentioned.
As Jim said, a bubble usually means rutsted trough. That's why I hacked out the back part of my quarter panel in my post "Touch up." The holes hacked in the car were merely bubbles in the paint, and you can see the end result.
To add some hope to the matter, I just went down and shot a picture:
This was also a bubbled area. Even though I have probed the area to check its integrity--it's sound--it's going to take extensive grinding, and the metal will be fairly thin when I'm done.
It will be 19 years this July when mine was painted, so I really cannot complain about the quality of the surface prep. The problem with surface prep is finding a professional who will spend the time it takes to prep the surface. Surface rust is vary labor intensive. Calculate that quality bodymen run 3 to 5 labor hours for each working hour, and it's clear that rust removal is expensive. That is if you can buy real rust removal.
If there is even the tiniest speck of black in the metal, the rust is still there, and it will come back in a short time. The hood and the roof were a layer of surface rust when I got the car. I know that I spent at least 200 to 300 working hours grinding it out--what it took to really get the rust out.
The pictured area wasn't in the batch of rust I grinded out. Except for 3 small spots on the hood, and 3 or 4 on the roof, those areas are still free of rust, even after almost 19 years.
Bottom line: Unless some of the newer weasel pi$$ on the market actually "cures" rust, you're going to find it next to impossible to find a professional who who will actually remove the rust, rather than making it so that it takes a few years to reappear.
Your window rust looks just like mine. The real problem is found when you check in the glass channel. Mine is rotted badly while most of the car is pretty good.
The glass channels don't have any drainage. They become catch alls for decaying leaves and other organic matter. This stuff gets under the chrome trim and holds water against the metal. The trim retainer pins usually have scratches on them and rust gets a tooth there to crawl under the paint. These window channels would rot enough to leak in four or five years when cars were kept outside. My '68 was leaking in 1973 when I repainted it.
Folks used to put RTV in the glass channels to fix leaks started by rusting. RTV was pretty new in 1972. It did a lot of sealing jobs well but this wasn't one of them. I used it myself on my bird back then. It contains acetic acid which accelerates rusting. Rust gets under the silicon which holds the water under it where it can't get out. Rust continues until it rots through to the inside of the car. Meanwhile the rust crawls underneath the paint, just like it has in this photo. When it crawls past the chrome trim that is when you first notice it.
Rust bubbles next to the Chrome window trim are the tip of the rust iceburg submerged below.
A lasting repair is difficult and expensive. Clean off rust and cut out rot. Weld in metal patches where rot is be removed. The windows need to be removed in order to repair the rust and rot. Anything less thorough is inviting brand new paint to fail.
Rust expands as it forms. That is why it cracks the paint. Cracked paint permits water intrusion. That's why it is pointless to paint over rust. Forget the weasel stuff. It can't work unless the rust is gone. If the rust is removed there are superior products. You'll never see an auot body shop using paint over rust or rust encapsulator products. That is because they pay for redo when it fails.
BLKBRD, don't freak out just yet. Yes, you have some rust bubbles - but they are very hard to see. Personally I would just drive the car and enjoy it while saving up for the paint job that you wanted to do in 3 years or so anyways. I doubt anyone is going to run up to your car with a shop light looking for tiny paint bubbles Car looks great. For a temp fix you could "pop" the larger pea sized bubble and scrape as much crap out of there as you can and fill it over with some touch up paint. Wet sanded and buffed out it will barely be noticeable. Repeat as needed. Then when you decide to have the car stripped and painted the rust can be repaired properly. Just my 2 cents.
OR you can ,IF one pops thru , just put a band aid over it as a joke ...my friend with a very nice 62 Corvette got a deep short scratch on his front fender, put a small bandaid on it ,gets cute comments all the time...
Thanks for the advice all and the comforting. I just want to know what kind of time frame I am looking at. If I wait till next year, will the rust damage be considerably more significant? All in all the car looks great and has very few imperfections in it. Like I said before, I refuse to let this car get in bad shape. Thanks.
Joe, You could easily let it go a year. Just take some time and look in all the suspect areas. You could oil or grease the rusty areas to slow it down. Rust drowned in oil doesn't move very fast. An urgent situation would be if you were getting body flex due to some weakening. When this happens the rust moves quickly in the flexing area. Jim
Ditto what 69fbconv said. If you're garaging the car and driving it in nice weather I think you can go 2-3 years before it looks really bad. I wouldn't fool with it for fear of making it look worse. Just keep an eye on it (which you probably cannot avoid doing now).
Can't be that bad Joe, all i see is a trouble light and some window trim Wait it out and start stashing the cash away slowly.While you are doing that, start searching/being referred to a shop you are comfortable with doing the work now and not when you have the cash, you may not be able to get it into a shop of your choice when you have all the money and just go with whomever just to get it done.You should be ok as you only fairweather drive it and it is stored indoors.
David
http://FirstGenFirebird.org/show/closeup.mv?CarID=571 If i don't get this car back on the road soon i'm gonna go postal! On a quest for FGF knowledge 1968 Pontiac Firebird Convertible 1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass "S" Convertible *Sold*
Joe, if you see blistering at the chrome window reveals, you could remove the trim to examine what is going on. Protect your paint with blue painter's detail tape while you unclip the chrome trim retainers using the special molding tool. That would give you a chance to closely examine the channel to see if there is hidden rust. If it's minor you can scape and sand to bare steel and put a primer over it to arrest rusting.
Like fbody69 says, it won't rust if the rust is under oil.
If you store it indoors, it can go several years with nothing more showing up.
Here is a photo of my car and a close up photo of the upper right glass channel after the glass, sealant and chrome reveal were removed.
The rust didn't look bad at that corner until I remove the chrome to inspect things. That corner needs to be cut out and new metal welded in.
Thanks all, very good advice and what I was looking for. I think I am done cruising the car for the year so I will be removing the rear window to see what I have. I will let you guys know how it goes.
Also, thanks again for your advice. I was ready to break out the sander
David, I will do just that, I have to do some research on shops and budget out for next year. Guess those heads, intake, rear end are going to have to wait No biggie though, she runs great as it is, just wanted more get up!
Joe, You can learn plenty with only taking the chrome trim off. Don't jump into assuming the window needs to come out until you see what you have hidden behind the chrome.
The thing is that you don't know how bad the rust is until you look under the paint. The smallest bubble can be a hole in the metal and the back side of the metal can be rusted so extensivly that you'll have to cut out a huge hole to remove the bad area. On the other hand, the area can be a huge bubbled up area, you knock the paint off, and it's surface. Simply you cannot tell without going under the paint.
The tough up route is a viable option. It looks just as bad with bubbles, so you're sol either way. Actually it looks worse with bubbles.
I'm yanking the w/s b/g because I have surface rust that is at the top edge of the pinchweld and extends down the vertical part of the pinchweld. Before yanking the glass, however, I'm going to get the plastic work done. That way the car's inside is fairly sealed.
Tell me about the crap that builds up under the b/g. I always hit the are with high pressure water, spending quite a lot of time making sure that the water runs crysal clear. The w/s area was super clean, but the b/g was major loaded up with crap. It was bad enough that I backed the car out and blasted it with a hose.
68Bigbird: That's not bad for a MD car. In fact that's about as clean as you can get for an unrestored car in this area. Lots of pinchwelds, front and back, were totally rusted away 25 or 30 years ago.
The bonus this MD resident has is that I have a native TX car that was transplanted in MD in 93. For a TX car, it's about average or just below average in the rust factor because the previous owners beat the dog crap out of the car, the reason it needs new quarters. I have had lots of MD car buffs look the car over, knowing where to look, and they are amazed at the virtually rust free chassis. All I can say is that if they think mine is rust free, they need to go look at some of the TX boys' cars.
yep! its rust. I wouldn't touch untill your ready. once you open it, up you are going to be sick. look inside the trunk underneath and get some rust converter like POR 15. it will stop it untill you can clean it out . they all rust in rear filler panel and front windshield. the body person did not prep the car with metal conditioner before primer but even so the rust was underneath so it wouldn't help anyhow. good luck and don't freak out. its nothing money can't fix.
Amervo, my car came from Southern Virginia, almost in North Carolina. I didn't find anything suitable closer to Maryland. The previous owner had already removed the windshield and backglass for repairs once. He nearly filled the glass channel with sealer. I'm told this makes it rot faster because it traps even more water when it fails. There's roof flashing under my windshield. I'm almost afraid to look. It has very solid rockers and floors though. That's a good start.
Joe, your leak probably is rust under the rope seal somewhere. The rope seal itself doesn't seem to dry out. By that I mean it's a tar-like substance that really sticks well. If it's sticking to lifted paint there will be rust underneath it. On mine, the window came out very easily because the tar was sticking to rust almost of the way around.
Amervo said if you leave a spec of black stuff in there the rust will come back. Let me add to that. If there is a hole through to the back of the metal it will also come back. If it has a hole through the steel, it should be welded closed or moisture will eventually get in from behind. Bondo has a bad reputation not because it's a bad product, but because the procedures used to involve poking a hole through the metal to pull out the dent. A small hole can be brazed shut. A large area, it needs to be cut out and replaced.
I wouldn't use POR15. I don't think there is any substitute for bare steel and modern epoxy primers. Fresh paint will cost plenty and you won't want a failure. If you do a full repaint, both the windshield and backglass really ought to come out. That way you get the glass channel cleaned down to bare steel and epoxy primered. Preparation is more important here than anywhere else on the car.
If you find a lot of rust in the tulip panel, the reproduction part is actually fairly nice. It's one of the most satisfactory aftermarket panels I have seen. If you need one, you want the one that includes the interior window frame. The tulip panel is not all that hard to cut out either. It can probably be glued in with the new two part 3M panel glue, but you didn't hear me say that.
Amervo, have you considered media blasting that spot instead of grinding on it? You would lose less metal thickness and it will still be squeaky clean. Evercoat Rage will fill in the surface texture pretty well.
I think that after all this advice that I am going to just sit on it until about June. That way I can enjoy the car a little bit and then start tearing it all down for blasting and paint. If I do this, it will be done right. Nothing that money cant fix right? :rolleyes: Let my wife hear me say that,,, I will be sleeping in the car. I may start tearing it down this winter, but I dont think so. I have too much on my plate right now. I will think about it though.
So, with all things being considered I am thinking this: Start tearing the car down in June. Should take me until at least October or November to get it fully dis-assembled. That is removing: all the trim, bumpers, interior, drive train, gas tank, rear end, etc... All of it. Then get the car media blasted. I am thinking this will run me anywhere from $900.00 to $1200.00 based on this area. After this point, well, I just dont know yet. I have to do my homework and find the right person for the job. I am going to try and budget out about 2K for the prep and paint, but with what I want to do, it may be more than that. I am looking to paint the car GM's Sunset Metallic Orange with a bit of pearl in it and I want to ghost flame some satin silver flames on the front. So maybe it will be more like 3K or 4K. I dont know. I dont have any experience in this department. But thats what I want and if I am going to do this, Im going to do it right. Now getting the cash together is my main obstacle!
Great! You made me paranoid so I looked my car over real well...and I found some "tiny bubbles"!!!...around the front of the driver's side rear wheel well.
I located three small bubbles on my hood (none next to ea other, but all abv a brace) , a few months back...but cannot figure out if its paint bubbles from last paint job that I didnt see before OR if I didnt get it clean enough before it was painted 3 yrs ago ( I bought a used hood with some rust..)...if thats the case I think its probably not worth doing again (as its probably is coming from underneath and the braces are in the way), maybe I will just buy a new Goodmark hood and paint it...
Vikki, since you have more experience than I do, how much do you think prep and paint would be for what I want to do. Keep in mind that I am not looking for a "best paint" award at shows, just something respectable. You know, no runs, fisheye's, orange peal, etc... Just a nice, straight shiny paint job with a bit of snaz to it.
Joe, I don't have more experience in that field, but I shopped around for paint for the Le Mans which was a straight, rust free car and the range of estimates was $3K to $7.5K for PPG base/clear after sanding to bare, filling door dings, epoxy prime and blocking. This included R&R chrome and stainless, and mask glass and edges. I got a show quality job because the car was nearly perfect, and start to finish took exactly two weeks. Now multiply the prepwork for welding, leading or filling, seam filling, straightening, panel fitting...then the paint, then the ghost work, and you can see where it could go way up.
Enjoy your car while saving your money, get your estimates, and then start disassembly. If your car is garage kept, it's not going to get much worse in only a year or two.
Vikki 1969 Goldenrod Yellow / black 400 convertible numbers matching
joe those paint problems are caused by improper cleaning, mixing and airpressure. not the paint. stick to one of the popular brands like ppg all the way through from primer to paint and you will have a lot less chance of problems and keep it clean clean clean and conditioned.
My paint/material was Sikkens from start to finish. It wasn't that I had a love affair with Sikkens; rather, it was the paint stocked by the dealership where I worked. I got a little bit of a discount, but I also had an employee account, whereby I could have the costs deducted on a weekly basis, rather than swallowing a large horse pill in one gulp. The paint is going to be 19 this summer, and it has spent its lifetime outside 24/7, so I really don't have anything to complain about. I buffed it out, and it's looking pretty darn good, provided that the sun 'dont shine on it.
About media blasting: I don't know whether or not it's old school menatlity, but the information I have gotten from bodymen is that blasting, sand or otherwise, actually pushes the metal. The result is, on the molecular level, metal molecules migrate over the small miscropic pits.
I'm not knocking anyone's opinion, but it seems that those who sell media blasing have vested interests in their product. The bodymen who make the claim about the problem certainly don't have vested interst in grinding discs. Too them, rust is a money killer because they cannot charge the amount of money they deserve for the amount of time spent on grinding out rust.
I know the thin metal is a concern. For now, the major problem with surface rust is in the picture I posted. On the real redo, this metal with be replaced, along with the quarter panel replacment, so my foucs is short term, 3 to 5 years--tops!
Above the corners of the b/g, the picture is the worst side is rust free, so there aren't issues of grinding metal. The couple of spots in the w/s pinchweld are so small that localized agressive grinding won't affect the structural integtity of the metal.
![[Linked Image]](http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mvc006s7po.jpg)
...my friend with a very nice 62 Corvette got a deep short scratch on his front fender, put a small bandaid on it ,gets cute comments all the time... 
![[Linked Image]](http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/919290/rightglasschannelrust.jpg)
