dancing? singing? posting? No - actually, I meant, I just can't stop!

Went to move the old bird out of the garage last night (5 degrees this morning - wanted my daily driver inside!), popped it into reverse, and suddenly the back half of my car was already out of the garage. Backed it down the driveway in neutral, and was able to stop at the bottom of the driveway.

Brake pedal goes right to the floor, and right as it hits rock bottom, the brakes start to catch a bit, and the "brake" light comes on the dash. I'm thinking "I know - I'm *trying* to brake!". Now I know why they call them idiot lights. :p Made sure the parking brake held the car in neutral, then shifted into park and shut 'er down.

Last time I had driven the car I noticed the brakes seemed lacking. And then when I moved the car into the garage a few weeks ago, I almost drove it straight through as I was almost unable to stop! (Merv can attest that I came within an inch of hitting a stack of tires, and other assorted garage items stacked against the wall.)

So I'm thinking I won't have much need to fix the heater this winter, as it seems I won't be driving the bird even on the "clear & sunny" days. Guess I will get back into the repair work in the spring. So much for my plans for a new stereo system.

You have all drum brakes? if so check for leaky wheel cylinders...or a bad or several bad brake hoses...check brake fluid level...

if all is good ,maybe just adjust the brakes...possibly your brake shoes are worn ,or got fluid on them , bad cylinders..

If you had no problems before, it must be the master cylinder. Your brakes are designed so that you should not loose front and back at the same time. The only common part between the two is the master. Now, if you already lost the front or the back before this, troubleshooting becomes a little bit more involved. You would have to have two problems at once if it's not the master cylinder. I did the exact thing you did but with my plow truck. A tree stopped me though. OUCH That's bad for the neck!

Jim, could it not be bad hoses? of course then youd have fluid on the ground...

once on my `60 military Volvo I lost one brake hose up front,it broke/popped as I hit the brakes! and I lost all braking, no fluid left...(while exiting onto a freeway overpass at 60mph! luckily I shifted down , passed the stop sign as I crept up on the left side against and to the left of oncoming traffic)

They designed it so that if you broke one line you should still have the other half of the system. A common thing to happen is you loose your back brakes for whatever reason and then you have to push the peddle even harder to stop. This extra pressure of pushing harder will pop the front line. It could be two lines or hoses. Ashtray has the key with the course of events.

yep, I know thats how Volvos are now too...but I guess not 1960...

All the American cars in the early sixties had a single chamber master too. I think the change was around 66-67.

We should have fired it up--huh? But it wouldn't have solved anything.

As Jim has explained the reason why, the first tree I would bark up would be the master cylinder. If it were leaking bad enough to cause catrostrophic failure, you'd see fluid on the floor. I don't have to ask you if there is fluid on the floor because you're bright/observant enough to notice such "minor" details.

We'll get on it long before the weather breaks. After all, Im'a will work for food kind of guy. You're probally better off redoing the whole system, minus lines, but perhaps new hoses on the controll arms/rear. It's not that expensive. With Advanced Auto, you might have some issues with the master cylinder--they don't seem to have the correct one. But you shouldn't have problems getting the rest of the parts. The parts are high quaility and their prices are much better than the resto places.

But you have to do me a favor. It saves me lots of aggravation, and it will probally save you money if it turns into a nightmare.

The hardest part of the job is breaking the fittings loose on the steel lines. The master cylinder, front/back wheel cylinders, and if were going to do hoses, front hoses to steel lines, and rear hose fittings (3 fittings).

Start spraying them with penetrating oil. WD40 don't get er done. The more you let it soak, the better chance we have of not destroying the lines. Even with that, sometimes it doesn't work because the fitting and the line flare seize up.

It creates a whole new aspect when you have to start replacing steel lines. If I recall, the lines look to be in good shape, and we don't want to get into line replacment.

Start soaking the fittings with penetrating oil NOW! When you spray them, tap the area with a lfh. Maybe I'll get by on some evening for a quick pit stop, not to tear into it, but to look over the fittings and get you going on them.

I know that lots of people love to convert to discs, and I agree that discs are better brakes. Even so, when I get done with it, you'll be able to stop it so fast the the back tires will leave the pavment.

There is a slight chance that the master is bypassing internally without much of an exterior leak. It could be just a dribble below the mounting surface.

If the pedal went all the way to the floor, and they are power brakes, theres a real problem. I'd crank it up and idle for 10-15 minutes, build up some fresh pressure. Then try it again. If pedal no longer bottoms out, its probably not the master cylinder.

Oh - I believe there's a real problem! Power drum brakes - pedal hits the floor, and each time it does, the brake light comes on. Uh - you think if I have the pedal on the floor, and the brakes aren't working that I need a light to tell me that the brakes aren't working?! Hahaha

I let the car idle for a while before moving it. I tried pumping the brakes, but that didn't have any effect. I think it's time for a system teardown and rebuild - in the springtime. Now it's time to find an outdoor cover for the car, and store it in my driveway for a few months!

It's not the system. Jim's right. Replace the master with a rebuilt one and the problem should be fixed. There are like 5 seals in the master between the primary and secondary. All it takes is one or two of those 5 to go bad, and the fluid will squish from the front to the back of the master and go back up into the reservoir.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Master is bad..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">never thought I`d hear you confess to that, "Master"

Usually when the master is bad you'll see fluid just beneath it on the booster.
If it were me I would start buying part's now and come next spring replace everything shoe's all 4,hardware and springs,wheel cylinder's all 4,master cylinder,all the steel lines and rubber lines.
Then replace all the fluid.
You certaintly don't want any brake issues either will driving or when you want to drive and you can't because you have brake problems.
That's what I did on my bird.

How long since you drove it last? ANyway, change the master and ALL the fluid...

Wow! I'm glad this didn't happen out in traffic. I've had this happen once and it was the master cylinder. It did us a give a bit of warning. My wife came home one day and said the brakes were acting a bit funny. One good hard push on the pedal finished it off in the garage. The pedal went to the floor after that.

Steve, I'm glad you and the bird are okay. Kind of makes that heater a minor concern.

okay, i am sure you managed to sort it out with the responses above.

but one more question... ...is this only happening when you don't have the engine running.

i have drums all round, and when i just need to move the car a few feet here and there, i just drop in neutral and use the foot on the floor trick. i do notice that the brakes are more mushy when the engines not running. as well, after sitting for long periods (winter to spring) the pedal needs a good pumping to get pressure built up in the system.

just my thoughts

32teeth,
I think you have a wee bit of air in your system.

Hey - the weather warmed up, so I might go out and tinker around a bit on the brakes tomorrow morning.

As for the last time I drove it? Uh - I think I took it for a spin about a month ago. It doesn't get driven much - so it sucks to start it up, and find a new problem with the car. But- I guess that's part of owning one of these guys. Luckily it sounds like it won't be too expensive of a repair job - I hope.

Yes - car was running when I tried to hit the brakes. My garage is level, and when I put my foot on the brakes and shifted into reverse - well, I was just lucky no one or nothing was right behind the car b/c it just shot out of the garage! (was idling kinda high at that point, which didn't help matters)

Brakes worked fine this summer - nice and strong.

Thanks all for the above ideas - and thank Amervo for the very kind offer. Maybe if we get a decently warm enough day after the holidays are over we can get together and knock this thing out of the park. I could drive it to your place - as long as there isn't any traffic! Just prepare the water-filled plastic barrels (you know, the ones they use in racing on the sides of the track?) for me to stop. hehehe.

You need to do the whole system. It's not an option. I'm one of the cheapest guys around here and if I say it isn't an option, it isn't an option. If the parts are okay, you can salvage shoes, drums, springs, and possibly the rubber hoses. But the wheel cylinders and master cylinder have to be replaced. I think you can do it for a buck fifty and a few pennies.

Other than wearing them out, the death of brakes is not using them. The wheel cylinders are contracted in their bores. The cast iron starts to rust quickly, and without the seals cleaning the surfaces on a regular basis, the corrosion and dirt get under/between the wheel cylinder seals/pistions. It grinds the rubber up and presto! One learns they call them idiot lights.

If you drive it every day, you can get 10 to 20 years on wheel cylinders. 6 months to a year of sitting can bring on the death of the hydralic system. (Remember what I said, even before I unlocked the door after the car sitting for 6 years? The brakes are going to be toast. I might be able to drive it home before they fail. But when I get it home, the frist thing I have to do to the car before even thinking about driving it is rebuild the hydralic system--yeah, got it home---on a roll back.)

You don't know how much sitting that the car did when it was with the previous owner, so the rebuild is mandatory maintainance.

We would probally be better off doing the work in your HHHUUUUGGGGGGEEEE garage. First, because we can make it an ongoing project. Second, because I don't have to play jockey with vehicles. My other car is in the driveway, and my company truck occupies the one parking space in front of my house. Third, because my garage is ill suited for doing any type of automotive repair.

As you can see in the picture, the width of the garage door is about the width of the car area in the garage.



I have been super careful while working because I had predicted the hazard--long before I started the job. Regardless, I have put a bf scratch in the back of the right quarter while jocking a fender around. (I have the fenders, hood, valance, assorted peices in my den so that I don't have to try to work around them.)

Also when working at your house: The fine meals that your wife fixes for me has nothing to do with it--really!

I didn't see a response on the fluid level. If you have a bit of brakes, half the system is still trying to work. The half that doesn't have fluid is obviously the one not working. Check for leaks and fix them in that half first, then evaluate the rest of the system.

Of course if you don't mind making sure you will have good brakes for some time into the future, replacing the usual parts is a good investment!

The brake gremlin that got me last month must have made his way to your garage too. I had the same problem in my 67' and had to replace the master cylinder. Got a rebuilt one from Advanced and it stops on a dime and will give nine cents change!! Best $17.00 I've ever spent.

I've also had this problem, on a 77 Grand Prix. It was either the diaphram in the power assist, or the master cylinder. Cannot remember which one.

i think it is a leaking wheel cylinder, you should replace those along with the master cylinder and bleed the system.

i had the exact same problem you were describing, it was an all of a sudden type thing. It turned out to be leaking brake wheel cylinders. Mine probably were 10yrs old.

The reason for finding any leaks first is because they are not always at the wheel cylinders. While resurrecting a Lamborghini Espada, I had to trace the brake lines to the rear calipers before I found the rusted line that had sprung a leak. It ran under the carpet across the rear floor pan right in the lowest part of the floor, where of course any water would soak into the carpet and greatly aid the rusting process.

Wheel cylinders are a good bet though.