I just wanted to throw this out there. Iv'e noticed that a few of the car shows on T.V. are pushing the new complete one piece Camaro bodys. They are stating that you can now build your own Camaro from the ground up. I was just wondering if anyone knew how you would title and register something that you built from the ground up? Wouldn't it have to have a registered vin #, in addition to meeting 2006 federal safety standards?
Technically wouldn't it be considered a new car?
What do you guys think?


Jerry

This has been talked about here before a year or so back, with the same questions. I recall a few folks saying there were "kit car" loopholes in the system in some states that allowed for this type of build and legal registration.

I have made mention to that obvious fact too. The thing is that this isn't anything close to building one from the ground up. This is a simple bolt together project that anyone who can twist a wrench can do.

I addition to the body never being able to meet crash standards--these cars are serious death traps in minor collisions--what about emission standards? The huge problem is that if the government didn't keep these things regulated, this would be an avenue where people could get around emission laws.

There is a fair market for off road use cars. That market could use such a chassis. You could probally do it illegally because it would be hard to keep tabs on it. Dice the old chassis up and hide the parts in empty cans set out for recycle pickup.

I don't know how it goes with "replacment parts." I have been part of a team doing structural repair that required replacment of the firewell/vin tag area. It required dot, state, and manafacturer documentation, with all officials present when the vin tag is removed. Because I was sub contractor, I wasn't there when the vin tag was removed. One of the officials--I think it was the manafacturer--took possession of the vin plate while the repairs were done.

The thing is that the car should have gone in the trash, but it was repaired. That car-- a new 85 model with about 1.5k on the clock--basically needed a replacment chassis. The problem was that they didn't offer a replacment chassis, so the body man built a chassis on a mangled floorboard.

If your car has a rusted beyond repair chassis and a "replacment chassis" is availible, is it leagle to use the replacment part? You can replace frame rails. Often rails have vin #'s. The outar structure, the firewall area, on my car has a vin # on it. I belive that part is available too.

Under current regulations, I cannot see how the car can come with a title because it would have to meet todays specks, something that aint happening.

I'm sure that the chassis comes with a SERIAL NUMBER

Yes and No. In the California DMV system it is called "Special Construction." The car must pass the emmissions requirements in effect for the year the cars was constructed if it is driven on the highway. So, in most cases, the only way to "build" a new Firebird (or Camaro) from the ground up will mean to use an LS2 out of a GTO with the entire ECM. If you have a title and the VIN plate to an older car, then you can get away with what I would call a "resurrection."

However, you might have to imprint (i.e. restamp) the hidden VIN numbers properly in order to pass the DMV's inspection.

hit the wrong button. But I don't see how it could come with a vin because it doesn't meet vehicle specks.

The only way you could do it would be if it were a replacment part for the old chassis. The thing is that you cannot scrap a chassis without a title. I agree this poses a sticky issue, and I have never seen anyone give what would seem to be correct and accurate information as to how this "replacment" can be done leagally.

I am not sure it can actually be done legally. I don't have any friends at the DMV, (which I find odd, considering how much time I spend there) who could help in the hypothetical discussion. However, if you can register an identical car under "Special Constructions" regulations, I would see some precedence for resurrecting a rusted out (not totalled) chassis.

It's a great question. I hope someone with more experience can offer some insight.

Also, I don't know for sure that it would not meet the specs. The final construction would be the same as the original design, becasue the rear frame rails, bub frame, doors, hood, fenders, et al, should be original design, right?

I would think this would fall under the same rules or guide lines as say an AC Cobra kit, a Porsche Speedster kit, a 33 Hot Rod kit, 57 Chevy etc...

These all are "New", (you could build one from scratch with all new parts) and they can be licensed and driven etc. So there has to be a provision for the Camaro bodies?

Otherwise they wouldn't be selling them and building them... I'll have to look up their web site or something and see if they address this issue?

I'd like to know for sure!

Brett!

This has always driven me nuts. Example: I go through a junk yard in Tennesse, find a scrapped 442 or old GTO. No matter what I spend on rebuilding it, I can't register it legally because its been scrapped and taken off the books!

I know there are back-door ways to get a registration, but the current system here does not allow one to do it through normal channels.

PMI, the problem is that the f/g/f chassis is a trashy design. Such a design will not meet current collision regulations. In order to "make a car" for sale in the US, it must undergo crash tests, collision and rollover, whereby the car is dropped on its roof. If it doesn't meet whatever specifications, it cannot be offered for sale. F/g/f's don't meet modern crash specks. These are incredibally dangerous cars in the advent of a collision. If you were involved in a collision, you would be much better off in Yugo than you would in a f/g/f. Unwary people love to preach the safety that old iron provides, but the facts prove beyond debate that old iron is death traps.

The point isn't whether or not the vehicle is roadworthy. Instead it's if it can be done leagally. The issue of roadworthy, however, does apply as far as to whether or not it's leagle. As Brett points out, there are kit cars. How does one get around the federal regulations?

I don't know what's involved with the kit cars. Brett mentions building from scratch. Does that mean steel stock, cut/weled in place? A pile of metal hand fabricated into a car is totally different. That is a true hand built vehicle.

This thing is a far cry from a hand built vehicle. Instead of the need for fabrication skills and tools, all you need is a monkey wrench and vice grips. There is no built-from-scratch with the chassis; simnply, it's a bolt together project because you are starting with an assemble chassis.

I don't know the answer, the only thing I can offer is agreeing with Jerry that I see a problem with trying to leagally register the vehicle. I had looking at hp tv/muscle car tv to see if I could find any information that mentiones the chassis. They are supposed to be experts at such things (it would be nice to see behind the curtian) and I was going to email them, asking about whether or not it's leagle to put it on the road. But I couldn't find anything other than future listings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would think this would fall under the same rules or guide lines as say an AC Cobra kit, a Porsche Speedster kit, a 33 Hot Rod kit, 57 Chevy etc...

These all are "New", (you could build one from scratch with all new parts) and they can be licensed and driven etc. So there has to be a provision for the Camaro bodies?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">At least here in Tx, its the "combo" that counts, at least thats how mine got excempted...when I had my 62 Healey replica ,fiberglass body built in `93, I got in under the rule as a 25 yr + old car...because I had a ford 302 in it that was a rebuilt 25 yr old engine!(plus Mustang II front end..)

WoW, this is getting interesting. I apologize for bringing up a topic that had already been posted, I didn't realize that. It's just that this topic caught my attention Sunday when I saw Muscle Car on spike T.V.. I was puzzeled when they did their sales pitch on the Year One, one piece camaro body
kit. " You Can Now Build A Muscle Car Camaro from the ground up." It came accross to me that they were saying that you could build a New Old Muscle car. I thgought, that's great, but how do you register it? Perhaps it might be a good question for Boyd Cottington, Chip Foose, or The Guys on American Chopper. I assume that hot rods and motor cycles built from scratch would fall under some of the same guidlines for registration.
I wouldn't think that the 25 year rule would apply
to what these guys build, since the motors that they put into their rods always appear to be fresh and new.

Thanks to everyone for responding.

Jerry

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> since the motors that they put into their rods always appear to be fresh and new.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Probably old blocks ,rebuilt....that would work here..

I was down at classic Ind. Last week and the guys showed me the convertible firebird body. Looks good and as original as my limited knowlage will allow me to comment. It has everything you would need if your body fire wall back was rotted and you wanted to replace it. It does not come with the vin plate. You need to take yours off and attach it to this one. It has all the original mounting hols for the body plate and the vin plate you just have to change them. Not that you could get the rivits to look original as far as I know. They said they are also coming out with one that has the doors and trunk lid mounted on it soon. I don't know if I would call it an original car if you chanaged the main part of the body out or not. But if you had a lot of rust, Floor pans, Rear fenders, ect. It looks like it would be a good alternitive at 10K than doing all the body work.

Brian, what prices for this shell were mentioned?

Every time the rod magazines publish an article about the 69 crate Camaro body, they do a tap dance around the legal issues of getting it registered for street use. The December 2005 Hot Rod explains:


"Everyone also asks us about legally registering a new Dynacorn body, and there is no clean answer since laws vary drastically fron state to state. It's safe to say that the new bodies can be used to re-body an existing '69 Camaro in virtually any state, though the laws about how the VIN will either be reaffixed or reassigned will differ. The bodies also come with serial numbers (not VINs) of their own, and some states will let you use those to register a car built from scratch, though sometimes in will end up registered as a homebuilt rather than as a Camaro. In those cases you are often required to build the car yourself rather than have a shop do it for you. Basically, you need to investigate the laws of your home state, plus get with a local Motor Vehicles office to get its interpretation of the state law."


That last line is the most important. You need to find out what is acceptable with your own state DMV before spending this sort of money. They can and will interpret their state laws by their own established policy.

Sure, you can "rebody" an existing Camaro. Then what do you do, switch the VIN tag? I don't think so, but that seems to be what the article is hinting at.


From http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01366.htm


"1366 Trafficking in Certain Motor Vehicles or Motor Vehicle Parts

Section 2321 of Title 18 makes it an offense to deal in motor vehicles or motor vehicle components knowing that the identification numbers have been falsified or removed. The term "identification number" is identical to the definition in 18 U.S.C. § 511.

There is no need to prove that such vehicles or parts have been transported in interstate or foreign commerce. Neither 18 U.S.C. § 2321 nor § 511 cover the simple possession of a vehicle or component with a falsified or removed identification number. Section 511 is limited to the person who removes or falsifies the identification number or who aids or abets such conduct. Section 2321 covers the trafficker in such vehicles or components, not a mere possessor. The component parts covered by 18 U.S.C. § 2321 are identical to those covered by 18 U.S.C. § 511. See this Manual at 1375

Section 2321 of Title 18 should be of assistance in dealing with the various salvage switch schemes (sometimes referred to as "VIN switching," "retagging" or "replating") where the VIN of a salvage motor vehicle and its "papers" (i.e., title) are transferred to a stolen motor vehicle of the same make and model. In executing this motor vehicle theft scheme, the defendant purchases or acquires a salvage vehicle at an insurance auction. He then steals or has stolen a vehicle of similar make and model year and then transfers the VIN of the salvage vehicle to the stolen vehicle. He then disposes of the stolen vehicle under its new identity. Because passenger cars from model year 1970 to date have been required by the Department of Transportation (DOT) to have VIN plates, 18 U.S.C. § 2321 would apply to any passenger car VIN switch occurring after the date of enactment (October 25, 1984). However, since the DOT component parts marking program began with model year 1987, violations of 18 U.S.C. § 2321, based on altered, removed, or obliterated parts identification numbers, could not occur until after introduction of the 1987 model year limits. The VINs of most other road vehicles are covered from model years 1981 to date. See this Manual at 1374 (Effective Date).

For a discussion of proving violations of 18 U.S.C. § 2321, see this Manual at 1376. "


I don't think it will matter if you have proof of ownership of the new body and the old VIN tag. The law concerns itself directly with "falsified or removed identification number".

Here is another interesting article:

From http://www.boss302.com/legal.htm

"SUMMARY: Illegally removing or altering a vehicle identification number (VIN) or selling or possessing a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN constitutes a crime in most states. In order to impose liability, state courts normally require a culpable mental state on the part of the defendant in altering or removing a VIN or in possessing a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN. Some states, however, do not require any culpable mental state on the part of the defendant when selling a vehicle or vehicle part with a removed or altered VIN."


Some of the experts in this field of building new repli-cars are finding themselves attracting unwanted attention too. Read the storys:

http://www.streetrodderweb.com/hotnews/0410sr_boyds/

an important exerpt:

"Additionally, SRM learned that law enforcement officials, it is believed were California Highway Patrol, recently visited the Labor Day Cruise, held annually in Costa Mesa at the fairgrounds, looking for "suspicious" vehicles. When asked what constituted a "suspicious vehicle" it was determined that any fiberglass car is suspect."

http://www.oilstick.com/statetargets.htm

an important comment in this article:

"To correct a common misunderstanding of California law, it is a felony to do the following:
1. Register a vehicle where the year of vehicle is misrepresented;
2. Register a vehicle where the value of the vehicle is understated; or
3. Register a vehicle where the year of the vehicle is misrepresented to avoid compliance with California smog laws."

Another article http://www.geocities.com/smogrfg/semaeditorial/thetitlesunlimitedissue.html

That article leads to this link:

http://www.geocities.com/smogrfg/semaeditorial/hotrodtitleissue.html

The way to find out if you can register one of these aftermarket Camaros would be to schedule an appointment with an MVA representative who has the authority to make decisions. Listen to his advice without arguing. It's his way or the highway. If he lays out steps that you can construct and title this repli-car, don't let the project lanquish. The rules could change before you finish or your contact could change jobs or positions if too much time passes.

Certainly, you don't want to "rebody" a 69 Camaro onto an existing VIN tag to see if that will slide.

Excellent Research and Information.


Jerry

Yep! Excellent research. From what I have gathered, federal law says it's illeagle to remove the vin tag from the chassis. What is on the books and what is enforced is 2 different things.

I'll toss this in as something to consider when big brother moniters vintage cars. I'm not positive for all f/g/f cars, but the later years of the f/g had closed breathers. Federal law says that you cannot remove the closed breather and operate it on the street. The thing is that hardly anyone is making any attempt to enforce this law on non-cat cars. Just for amusment sake, the common consensus is that nox is the main pollutant that causes problems. Non-cat cars belt out so much nox, the open or closed breather doesn't make a difference in the name of promoting cleaner air.

In the case of modifications that "don't meet clean air stats," even though it's a violation of federal law, no one is enforcing it. Rather, few, if any, are enforcing it.

Keeping with the topic, because we have to dance to our local politicians, local laws are an issue. What about federal laws? The vin plate that was r & i on the new car required the presence of the manafactuer, local motor vehicles official, and the dot. The dot is a federal agency, meaning that a federal law official witnessed the removal and installation of the vin plate. Without federal approval for the repair, it would have been a federal offense to remove the vin plate.

From what I understand of the law governing the vin plate, the law states that the vin plate cannot be removed. Based on the excellent information that has been posted here, the hot rods and car crafts seem to be aware of the federal law and obviously weasle around the issue of the leagle aspects.


It would be unwise to say the heck with the law and do it illeaglly. If caught, the car would be confiscated. As a result, it becomes whatever enforment agency's property. Once it belongs to them, they dispose of the property in whatever manner they choose. That means that it automatially becomes leagle, whether it salvage, home built, kit, named car, or whatever. Now that law enforcment has cleared up whatever leagle mess with the car, guess what happens to the "proptery"? They sell it to what will become the leagle owner of legitimate property.

Seeing this is purely a what if post, what about installing the firewall from the exising car into the chassis. My best interpertation of the law govering vin plates is that it cannot be removed. If you install the firewall, you have not removed the vin plate--ccorrect?

I was thinking the same thing Amervo. But rather than swap the firewall onto the repro body, swap the repro body onto the original firewall. The order is important, since we are being theoretical, lol.

Quote "Brian, what prices for this shell were mentioned?"

Sorry I've been off line for a while. There running right around 10K They said that they are comming out with a modle soon that will include the doors as well.