I worked with Pontiac technician who did warranty work on new firebirds. I might do a more detailed post at a later time, but for now, here is what he said about the D-80 option.

As we all know, Firebird sales were dismal and almost went under if not for the t/a. Factories are already geared up for production of x-amount of cars for the year. As customers became aware that Pontiac would do almost anything to get rid of Firbrids, one of the many options that customers used was to order the car with the D-80 option. After the car arrived at the dealership, the dealer would "convert" the car to a t/a, usually for next to nothing, and sometimes for free if it were a hard sale.

(You see, the profit comes into play based on volume of vehilces, not a percentage of the collected money. I don't know how it works because it relates to numbers. The thing is that volume of vehicles sold, not the amount of money they collect from the sale is the important thing for dealership profit.)

Once the car arrived, the dealer would add on the t/a components. T/A was a cosmetic package and had nothing to do with perfromance. One problem with the conversion was that the r/a components ran out quickly or were never availible to the dealer. As a result, many of the dealer built "t/a"s had r/a delete in the scoopes.

One would think that "deler invoice" would show the conversion. Then again, maybe not. If you know the insides of the dealership, you'll know that the dealer and factory are anythying but buddies. In fact, there is quite a lot of rivalry between the orginizations.

I don't recall whether I read it in the D80 article that I wish someone would fish up, or read it somewhere eles, but I recall a mention about documented t/a's, yet the r/a components are missing, with r/a delete in the scoops. The completation was whether or not the r/a components were removed. The problem is that it defies logic as to why one would remove the components. More important, after knowledgable personal inspected the car, it appeard as if the r/a components were never installed on the car.

How these new-car make-ready cars come into play with documentation of the t/a is anyone's guess. I think that it's in the article about the D-80 that makes mention that there are more t/a's around then--wich was now--than they were when they were built.

I think that the book is scrapped, but I had a Kovel's collector car price guide from 1980. It listed 49k as the total production of 69 Firebirds, but current information makes this number an incorrect production number.

The Firebird mistery is fasinating. It makes me mad when a money grubber like PHS tries to pretend that such a mistery doesn't exist. I understand: If they admitted the mistery, how tf are they going to convince you to send them 35 bucks?

I do believe that phs does have the info on these bird's.
I don't know how or why you think they don't.

If each dealership was making changes to the cars at customer requests in order to sell the cars, then it's anyone's guess of what "original" means.

For example - my friend bought a car and wanted a certain color of wheel not offered on his particular colored car. The dealership swapped the rims on both vehicles, so that now both cars were being sold new with "options" that were never factory options. 20 years from now if someone wants to restore the car to original, then there's not really documentation there about the swap.

Now think if they start swapping engine parts from one car to another, or had a bunch of extra parts in their service area. A person could buy a new car, request different options be added to the car, and then the history of how the car was originally purchased gets "lost" over the years.

I'm still going to get the PHS on my car when I get off my lazy butt - I think they have some valuable information about how the car started life. I just think it's incomplete, due to the dealerships messing with the cars before selling them.

As for Amervo's point about sales volume - yes, I worked for a dealership (in sales) for a while. Basically, think of it as a volume discount. If they sell 1,000 Pontiacs, they get them say at a 20% discount. But if they sell less than 1,000 they only get a 15% discount. That 5% difference can really add up if they've sold 950 cars. They could give the last 50 cars away just in order to get the higher discount from the factory - and still come out better. That's why you see dealerships making crazy deals on some cars say at the end of the year, or usually, at the end of the month. They'll give you a great trade in value, or throw in free options, etc etc just to move a vehicle in order to get their sales numbers up.

I agree completely. There is no question that many folks drove away with what they thought was a new and complete 1969 TA from the dealership, but the car never really got all the approved and endorsed options prior to delivery. There were several TA packages offered. Much of that was based on folks making last-minute decisions at the dealership, as well as availibility of components.

So with the exception of manufacturer sponsored dealer installed options, why wouldn't other dealer changes be considered like any other after-market stuff added after it left the factory, i.e. mods? I can see a dealer added door guards, floor mats, or tire upgrade but a major TA change?

In DC, the dealer I bought my '68 from would take in cars and load the up with dealer add ons. The higher profit was in the extras. They would put the extra stuff on the car before it hit the sales lot. More popular models got more add-ons even though customers didn't want them. Less desired models were left alone. If you wanted a deep discount, you bought a factory economy version that they left alone. That tended to be the 350/3spd column shift. The 400's got dealer options tacked on to run the profit up. Popular features here were door edge molding and chrome door edge guards. Nothing left the lot without "gas, glaze and undercoat" charges.

Having run two dealerships ( even though imports ,and they are different in ordering and such aspects), I know lots of mods can happen there without documentation, its "just done".... a body tag though is different, it would never be 'modified'...but cars could have or have deleted things at the dealership...

my favosite 'delete' at Volvo was the Radio..."we dont want a Volvo Radio, we are going to install an Alpine!"

guess what!? Alpine made the radios for Volvo!

or when customer comes back after 3,4 weeks and says "my windows dont work! its warranty repair"
first thing you`d check , aftermkt radio and or speakers!
99.99 % of the cases , that was it!
Aftermkt speakers mounted in the front doors were deeper and did not allow the windows to roll down!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The higher profit was in the extras. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">of course.... we would have customers bargain the last $50 on a $20 k car , then tell the salesman they wanted "pinstripes", and not argue about the $125 , cost to dlrship $10, 5 for material, 5 for installation by the washrack guy! :rolleyes:

I'm not saying that PHS doesn't have any information on the cars. What I'm saying is that Pontiac doesn't know what they made during that era. I don't know if it applies for all Pontiacs, but it applies toward Firebirds. This clearly shown in Pontiac history that Pontiac didn't know what they built. If the people who built the product don't know what was built, how the heck does anyone else know?

The information that they use is dealer invoice, paperwork that is created when the car is about to be delivered to the buyer, not as the car was when it left the assembly plant. That means that any alterations done by new-car make-ready will be reflected on dealer invoice. Then again, it may not refelct on dealer invoice if the dealer didn't include the changes on the invoice. The point I drive isn't that the car is incorrect in any fasion. The issue that I bring up is that there was some new-car make-ready alterations done. How much alterations is anyone's guess. IMO, I think that such issues makes the Firebird history more interesting. What it means is that there are 2 types of Firebirds, one that was built on the assembly line, and one that was built by new-car make-ready. This is just like the numbers match issue. There are 2 types of cars, and I think that it ought to be noted that there are 2 type of cars.

As I said, the people would order the car with the D80, then have the t/a package added by the dealer. When the dealer does repairs to the car, whatever work is done is considered the same as factory. New-car make-ready work carries a "GM factory warranty." All repair/alterations done by the dealership is considred legitimate work as far as factory is concerned, provided that the repair meets factory protocall.

Doug, the thing is that phs cannot tell which t/a's are make ready ones because phs uses dealer invoice, the only documentation that exists for Firebirds. I'm not an historian, so I don't know all the in's and out's, but I don't like historians ignoring important facts in recounting history. PHS claims that they use eigher factory records or dealer invoice. I'm not sure, but for other Pontiacs, there may be factory records. I do know, however, that there are no factory records on Firebrid production, and it has been common knowledge for numerous decades. Therefore, the information source becomes dealer invoice.

This issue goes beyond the t/a and affects other Firebirds. I guess that I need to post the issues covered during the conversation with the old Pontiac technician.

I find it amazing that there is as much documentation as there is on our cars. For those not as long in the tooth, you may not realize how archaic records were in the late 60's to early 70s. Computers, when used, consisted of big rooms full of equipment which processed input once a day or so. Input was a big stack of cards with holes in them, one line of code per card. And much archive storage was mini-pictures of paper printouts. I'm glad some archives have survived in places like PHS and a few packrat individuals.

oops- slipping past 1,000 on this one.

Amervo Quote,
"I worked with Pontiac technician who did warranty work on new firebirds. I might do a more detailed post at a later time, but for now, here is what he said about the D-80 option.

As we all know, Firebird sales were dismal and almost went under if not for the t/a. Factories are already geared up for production of x-amount of cars for the year. As customers became aware that Pontiac would do almost anything to get rid of Firbrids, one of the many options that customers used was to order the car with the D-80 option. After the car arrived at the dealership, the dealer would "convert" the car to a t/a, usually for next to nothing, and sometimes for free if it were a hard sale. "

:rolleyes: I'm not buying it. Where are the other cars with D80 on the trim tag???

Answer: They are all Trans Ams.

Show me one other 69 Firebird with a D80 that's not White and I'll listen. There are NONE. Show me just ONE!!!

just my rambling...but I`ve seen 'misprinted' license plates....why not a 'misprinted' body tag? could have slipped by? Or maybe it was intended to be a TA and they changed their mind?

in any case you have a "rare" car!

If it has the correct trunk spring for the TA spoiler it's not a misprint.

I don't agree with that. D80 had a special spring. It looks the same, but if you measure it it's different. One of the trunk lid spring rods is slightly larger. About a 1/16 of an inch larger to hold the lid up with that heavy spoiler. It's been proven.

I have had a dozen D80 69 Camaros and they all had the heavier spring.

Jim is correct. I have documented the part numbers for the torsion rods. The standard rods will not lift the deck lid with a TA style spoiler, regardless of notch.

Excellent Vikki! Part numbers will tell the tale.

All you need to do is measure. If one of the two is slightly bigger then it's a true D80.

NO

As Pontiac 10th states on his car, PHS--not me say that just because the car has a D80, it doesn't mean it's a t/a. The D80 car is discussed in the Pontiac mag article, I remember reading about it before the pontiac article (I'm a readaholic and I have been a readaholic since 18 months of agea) and the old technician said that cars were ordered with the D80 option.

I always try to keep opinion versus fact catagorized so that the listener can tell the difference. Not saying that I'm never wrong, but when I claim something to be a fact, I always have signifigant foundation on which to base the conclusion.

The Pontiac Mag article would help matters quite a bit. I give credit where it's due, and I think that PHS was insturmental in the information contained in the article.

It would be really nice if someone would find the article. As I said, the mention of the article is dominate text on the cover, so it isn't like you have to thumb through the mags to find it.

I agree with Jimc2002's comment suggesting that only manufacturer sponsored dealer installed options should be seen as correct on a car. (And maybe not those.) After all, I believe a dealer can install an endless number of different aftermarket parts. IMO those cannot be seen as correct any more than if I installed them. In general, only the manufacturer determines originality. Dealerships are separate legal entities from the manufacturer.

As I mentioned before Lordstown never produced a 1969 Trans Am. Obviously they never had a way to get parts at that particular plant for T/A production.
Your car is very interesting that it has the D80 however, but until another surfaces from a LOR plant build, it's a lone build car.

There are MANY components to the Trans Am package, your car does not have most of them. Those that are missing are not simply cosmetic. It appears to be a one of a kind, though, so enjoy it.

Couldnt Lordstown have built ONE green TA? not likely , but not impossible ,right?

It's not a TA. It does not (and did not) have the REST of the TA parts, only one cosmetic part. If in doubt, hire a reputable specialty appraiser to document the car. It will set you back a few hundred dollars, but upon reviewing the PHS and looking at the car you will get a written appraisal for a 1969 Firebird 350, Limelight Green with a dark green top, with a spoiler option.

The biggest proof it's not a TA is that the PHS doesn't have the WS4. The only question is the factory spoiler. We have yet to hear about the spring rod? The information given about the car has been selective and sporadic. You would have thought that Dave would have ran out and measured the rod by now???? After using some picture enhancing techniques the D80 looks to be added?? Good amature job but the height of the D80 does not match the height of the rest of the figures on the tag. Can you say 'photo shop'. :rolleyes:

That was before I got a clear picture.

Jim/Vikki -

Now I know why my '68 bird trunk-lid (with '69 TA spoiler) keeps clunking me on the head!

I've learned something here. But, haven't we all learned something off this thread?

Oh yeah. Not soon forgotten.

I wish I was a rock star...but I'm not.

-John