http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.d...EE/60529004/1041/rss01&rssfeed=rss01

For what it's worth, this was on Autoweek's website. I'm still buying/leasing new Pontiacs. I think I'm alone though.

Another example of why GM is not going in the right direction. Rear wheel drive cars are a thing of the past for winter driving in the northern states. Glad I've got my Bonneville. With it's front wheel drive, low center of gravity and lots of room, it's a grocery getter deluxe. Not to mention it's 'cross-country' potential. Why buy hybrid when a big Bonne get's 25+ miles per gallon with the powerful 3800?

Actually rear wheel drive technology has evolved greatly in the past few years. Other OEMs have adapted the advanced technologies with great success on their rwd platforms. They perform very well in adverse driving condition. (snow, sleet, wet, etc.) Do count out Pontiac (GM) for not being able apply the same effort. "Performance" by most people's definition, means a rwd platform. Isn't that what Pontiac is known for?

Interesting... I agree that rear wheel drive certainly seems to meet the "performance" definition, at least by those that seem to appreciate BMW, and other similars.

But I'm not sure selling nothing but RWD would help sales. I think many people, including myself, would need to be convinced that a RWD would perform as well or better than a FWD in winter conditions. When the streets are icy, and you need to get up a hill, and your at a full stop waiting for the light to change, there something about having the engine weight over your driven wheels that just seems to make sense. That perception could be wrong, but it's shared by many, right? Perhaps it's both an engineering AND a marketing problem...

I'm not sure I've ever liked the idea of Pontiac being the supposed "performance" division though. In my mind, Pontiac was a notch up from Chevy, meaning a little nicer interior, nicer "options", maybe a little better handling, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And that was good enough. To say that Pontiac is the "performance" division is almost to say that the other divisions therefore are NOT performance. And if that's the case, does that mean the Corvette, Camaro, and several other cars should have the arrow head on their nose? I don't see that happening, but how can you call yourself the "performance" division if the top performing car wears a blue bow-tie?

ps: my other car is a 1999 Grand Prix GT, and I love it.

Considering RWD vs FWD:

1. Take a 12" ruler and put it on a countertop. 2. Push it around from one end.
3. Pull it around from the other end.

Which appears to be inherently easier and more stable to do? Ummm, I love RWD but FWD is the way to go 90% of the time.

I live on a hill. When it gets snowy/icy in the winter, when my friends go to leave, I ask them one question; "Front or rear wheel drive"? I ask this because it's the line between whether I need to get the truck and snatch rope out or not.

FWD is nicer in slick conditions of course, but for every other purpose, I would take a RWD every time.

The problem with the push-and-pull of the ruler scenario to explain FWD vs RWD is you forgot about steering.

By "pushing" the ruler from the back, at only one end, you also move the steering controls to the back, and of COURSE that is gonna suck.

If we all REALLY want to get down to the final analysis, something AWD is always best.

p.s. - I kind of like thhe idea of branding Pontiac as teh "performance" divsion. Pontiac needs something that distinguishes them from the rest of GM, or we'll end up going the way of Olds.

"If we all REALLY want to get down to the final analysis, something AWD is always best."

Not the best for gas mileage, that's for sure.

I still say GM has their head in the sand. Like the way they took away ALL the rear wheel drive cars for a few years. This cost GM dearly. The police quit buying Impalas and went exclusively to Crown Vics. The rear wheel drive fanatics that I work with all went to Lincolns even though they have GM discounts. It's really sad seeing a lifelong Caddy guy going over to a Lincoln!

While there is certainly much to argue about FWD vs RWD (vs AWD?) - and I have had my experiences with all of the above from years of ownership (in the north east) - the article says a lot more than just the thought of moving Pontiac to RWD only.

We have to remember that it's possible that Pontiac could go the way of Oldsmobile! They're trying to save the brand though (they tried to save Oldsmobile too with a new lineup of cars, but it didn't work) - and GM is seeing the problem of taking 1 car and rebadging it 5 times and giving each brand their own version of the same exact car.

It's a no win situation - somewhere, something has to give. If the division can't turn a profit, then they won't be able to make cars, and the dealers will be "out of work". So to sacrifice dealer profit for division stability makes a lot of sense. And to help offset this issue, they've even thought of a plan to align Pontiac with Buick and GMC in one dealership, with no overlapping vehicles.

Would Pontiac lose sales if they go to RWD only? Yeah - I'm sure of it. But - would they be able to forsee that issue, design some exciting cars, cut the fat out of the system, and have a focused division goal? That's possible - and that would all increase sales, and profits.

I spoke to some dealers about the new Solstice - there's currently a 4-6 month backlog on orders. That's down from a 1 year backlog when they first came out. This is a RWD 2 seat convertible costing on average $25k (optioned). The car is completely impractical, doesn't get that great of gas mileage, and isn't that great in the performance area either. Not to mention the abismal lack of usable trunk space. So why all the demand? B/c the car looks hot - it's something people want to drive. If all their models sold this well, they wouldn't be questioning the viability of the brand. If they need to cut their model lineup in half in order to achieve this, then it makes sense for them to do.

As for RWD cars - look at the overwhelming success of the Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger sedans - rwd, but very strong sellers. Sure - traction in the snow sucks, even with fancy electronics. rain traction isn't great either, but neither is fwd in the rain. Most people have an SUV anyways - if the roads are that bad, they won't drive the rwd car - probably safer for them to stay off the roads anyways!

Me - I'm currenly loving my AWD car - it's really amazing in all weather conditions, and this particular AWD system works near flawlessly. Should all cars be AWD? Nah - those RWD cars can still be more fun to drive around in!

Looking at this from the inside out at GM the issue is very simple. There is nobody looking out for the company as a whole. There is plenty of manuevering inside the company to make the small niches work. The people that make the decisions make them to forward their own causes and line their own pockets. I see big wigs come and go every few years. One thing they all have in common is that their pockets are full when they leave. That's how they attract the major vultures like Steve Miller. He arrives, he lines his pockets with millions, he leaves without doing a thing to make the company better. They are all pimps reaping the profits of the aging body of GM.

Ashtray touched on serveral good points above. Remember Chrysler a few years back - in the "cab forward", pre-Daimler days? Hardly a RWD car on the lot. Then they brought performance back. And how did they bring it back - on RWD cars. And they are flying off the showroom floors.

Ask any auto engineer - when you are asking a set of wheels to both drive AND steer, your asking a lot.

I now live someplace where ice and snow occur. Do you think I'm going to drive my new Mustang during that time? Heck no, I'm either going to take the wife's Accord to work or my 4X4 truck. If I wanted to drive a performance car all year round in a place with a significant amount of winter driving - then it would be AWD for me.

Most if not all new RWD cars now are equipped with traction control. You don't have the plowing condition with RWD that is common in FWD. It's better system is debatable for sure, but I think the industry and consumers want performance and giving up a little in foul weather is the tradeoff.

Speaking of the Solstice, has anyone seen the solstice in Hot Rod magazine lately? It's the corvette 500 HP V8, this solstice is definitely a beast.

And they are coming out soon with a 260 HP solstice later this year...I think is supercharged?

Salmon's quote: "Ask any auto engineer - when you are asking a set of wheels to both drive AND steer, your asking a lot."

They been building them like that for 30 years. Plenty of time to get it right. I think it's an awesome thing. If you start to get stuck you steer and give it gas and if you aren't already buried it will climb out.

4dabird's Quote: "Most if not all new RWD cars now are equipped with traction control. You don't have the plowing condition with RWD that is common in FWD"

Most, if not all the front wheel drive cars have traction control too.

It's kind of funny to see an arguement that a rear wheel drive car can compete with a front in a real winter environment. Don't even try it! How about this; You can 'get by' with a rear wheel drive vehical. All wheel drive will do good but those vehicals are very expensive and turning that second drive train kills gas mileage.

I'll just add a couple more points here, from experience:

I have driven both RWD large American cars in deep winter conditions - throw some sand bags in the trunk, get some decent tires back there, and slip slide away down the road!

I've driven a 2WD pickup truck in winter conditions as well... mostly sideways, but that was half the fun. If the roads were that bad to travel on, I wouldn't go out, or I'd get a ride with someone else - but I would certainly be out there trying before giving up - even if that meant doing 270 degree turns through intersections on occassions! (oops)

I also had a newer BMW 5 series, RWD, manual transmission. It had traction control - and that system worked really well keeping the car from going too much sideways through a turn in bad weather. Unfortunately, the traction just wasn't always there - and I recall getting stuck on a slick road - the first car at a stop light, light turned green, and I couldn't move! Horns blew, people drove around me - and I felt really stupid.

Now I'm driving a Subaru WRX. AWD and performance. I get mid to upper 20's in the mpg rating - which is "low" for the size of the car, but not bad given the amount of power (260hp currently) the car has. But yeah, the awd adds weight, and uses more gas. A small tradeoff for having all weather performance. And Subarus aren't that much more expensive than their competitors, for what you are getting.

I've also owned some FWD cars in the past - ugh, they were annoying at times b/c of either torque steer (say as I'm trying to pass someone on the highways - I floor it, and hang on for dear life!), or poor handling (when the car loses traction in a turn, there's not much you can do with the gas, brakes, or steering wheel to gain control - just need to wait it out until you have traction again).

RWD vehicles handle the best out of awd and fwd in dry conditions - but that being said, just b/c a car is rwd doesn't make it better handling than a fwd car. Take a Crown Vic, and compare it to a Civic Si. I'd say the Civic handles better in dry conditions. Now, if the Civic were "easily" converted to RWD, and you compared that car to the FWD version of the Civic, then the RWD vehicle would handle better (turn faster lap times at the majority of race tracks out there) in dry weather.

Now, in wet conditions, we have to remember that we need to use more caution when driving. Losing control of either a fwd vehicle or a rwd vehicle means a loss of traction to the wheels you are controlling. In a FWD vehicle, all you are really controlling is 2 of the 4 wheels. The rear wheels just drag behind you - even the braking is done primarily by the front wheels. The end result is that if you lose traction to the front tires, there's little you can do in a fwd car. In a rwd car, if you lose traction to the front tires, you can manipulate the throttle (downshift, let off gas, give it more gas, etc) to regain control. If the rear gives out, then you can use the steering wheel to help regain control. If you're in a 4 wheel drift - it doesn't matter what kind of drive system you have, no input to the steering/gas/brakes is going to change anything until you regain traction.


So - the question is, what is right for Pontiac now? Who knows. Is going to all RWD platforms a good thing? I dunno. FWD certainly has it's advantages, especially with inexperienced drivers, or people who live in wintry conditions. Can Pontiac afford to lose a population of buyers in order to gain a "performance image"? Possibly. Will Pontiac ever be like it was in the past? No. Maybe that's a good thing, or maybe we just need to refocus on what the auto industry currently is, and what economic factors are at stake.

Personally, as a Pontiac fan, I wouldn't mind if Pontiac just built 3 different models - as long as those 3 cars were each ones that I would be proud to own. 4 cyl turbo FWD hatch, mid size rwd 2 and 4 door coupe/sedan with 6 cyl and optional 8 cyl, and a full size 4 door rwd sedan with an 8 cyl. That's pretty much all they need to succeed long term.

having driven both RWD and FWD for long time and still do....
my first surprise was in 1964 when I drove my 63 Mini Coooper down a steep icey/snowy road to a cul de sac in Sweden....my buddy said "we`ll never get back up"...I said , "Sure ,no problem, we got FWD!"
then I realized I couldnt get back up the steep hill!
tried 5 times,front wheels just spinning half way up , eventually ,in desperation, I backed up! it worked! Got the load on the driven wheels!

both FWD and RWD work as long as you know how to handle them...
I "ice raced" both too back then...

now my Pontiac is RWD, my Triumph is RWD, my Caddy is FWD (with traction control)

Bjorn makes an excellent point that I think many are missing. The most important part of this FWD/RWD/AWD equation is driver capability. There will always be engineering trade-offs when designing a platform, but the main consideration when purchasing a particular model must always be "What conditions will I be driving this car in, and will I be able to handle it?" If you have high confidence in your abilities, then buy the car. If you wife doesn't really know how she feels about it, then err on the side of caution and buy car that best suits her. Nobody can say that what's right for Fbody69 is also right for Ashtray, or Firechiken. Can you dig it? I thought that you could!

Matt

Good point. And it's the point missed by GM. You need to diversify. Cutting out all the FWD is anti-diversification. Can they really afford to cut out all their FWD customers? I have two choices; Keep fixing what I have or buy elsewhere. It's a lose lose with GM and this customer. I'm sure some auto maker will still be selling a large FWD vehical. Hot tip, buy their stock!

The article didn't say GM was abandoning FWD. It said that they're not going to have a FWD Pontiac. If you want FWD, you buy another GM brand. It makes sense, since there's not really any distinction between the divisions now. They're just the same GM platforms with different names on them. Why not divy the platforms out to single divisions and quit competing with themselves?

Since the idea behind this is to make Pontiac be their performance division, maybe it means the Chevy Camaro will actually be a Pontiac by the time it comes out. Hopefully, they'd call it a Firebird instead of Camaro. I think a Pontiac Camaro would upset people on both sides of the aisle.

And what would be the GM FWD that you are referring to?? When I bought my Bonneville the alternative was the Impala and there are articles about them going v-8 rear wheel too. I think that the change-over is tied to GM wanting to off it's plants that make the FWD components.

I seriously doubt that GM will abandon FWD and "off" the plants that make the parts!? From a fuel effiency, packaging and safety standpoint, FWD is a very good idea. GM will continue to make small and midsize FWD vehicles for the other divisions. If GM makes Pontiac the performance division and is all RWD, they will need to market and educate the public very well. If done right, it could turn the division, and possibly GM around.

The plants are already for sale.

A company in financial trouble will tend to want to sell off parts of it's business to help save the company. The FWD parts would be made somewhere else. Maybe by someone else.

Mexico.