I have recently found the FirstGenFirebird website and man is it a great mound of information for all of us Firebird lovers. I grew up with friends and family who had hot rods but way back then I did not get into building engines or cars.(I was into sports) When I was 15 years old I bought my first car with the money I had saved over the summer for cutting yards. And my first car was a 1969 Firebird, 4 speed. To make a long story short I still have my Firebird after 25 years. I drove it though high school and college but soon after college I parked it and bought me another car. Since then, my Bird has been sitting for the past 13 years. My plan was to get my Bird going after my father retired. My father was a huge car person and had many Muscle cars way back in the day. But I thought after my father retired, we would have more time to spend together and more time in general to do the father/son thing. Several years went by and my father got sick. It has now been 2 years since my father has passed away and my family has tried many times to convince me to "get rid" of my Bird. There was even a situation with codes having a problem with my "non-running car." About 8 months ago I cought the bug-the bug of getting my Bird flying once again. My car needs engine work and body work to remove rust. Like I said earlier I am more of a sports person and not a gearhead like most of you guys in here. I know a little about cars but I want to learn more. I have been reading, watching tv shows, going to car shows and crusins to talk to everyone and learn. I have found an engine guy who I can trust to help me out with my engine to see if it is saveable. I guess my question is where do I start? The rust on the car concerns me the most. It will need new panels or patch panels? So is it best to cut the rust out and add patch panels or to install a new full size panel? I am not sure if I want to do a body off restoration or a body on half restoration. The car needs to be sand blasted or chemically diped to see how far the rust goes. What is good advice on sand blasting? I heard if it is not done correctly the medal on the car could become warped. I am in Tennessee-does anyone know of a good, honest person or company to deal with? I have talked to a few restoration companies here but would like to look at more. I have many questions but I will stop now to see what kind of advice I receive before I go any further. Sorry for the long story. Thank you for your time and any information that could help me get my Bird flying again is very appriciated. Ronfox@newhorizonscorp.com
Welcome Ron! You are very lucky to still have that piece of your past. There are so many ways you could go. What I would do, what I do with all of the cars that I get lucky enough to own, is start project "Save What I Have Left". I would get it up on blocks and study it, one end to the other, underneath. Either take some oil, grease or rustoleum and treat the edges where the rust is eating away. That way, if you get real busy and can't touch it again for years, it will be there for you, waiting. Good Luck!
Good luck Ron, here in town one of my friends is just finishing up restoring his 69 convertible he used to have in H.S, it was his dads car before .... Now its looking great ,took him 4 slow yrs...and its a beauty..
Thanks Fbody69 and Bjorn Sefeldt for responding. My most concern is the rust and I would like to have that worked on as soon as possible. I know there are several media blasting used on rust but which is best? (Sand, bead, walnut shells, chemicals)
Ron ,sand blasting tend to 'warp' metal ,so if you`re doing body panels ,dont use sand...walnut shells are good...chemicals too, but I`m leary about gettimg all out/off and have long term damage...bead blast is good too..
Your best bet would be to find someone that does sandblasting out of their own resto shop. I use a fellow for my blasting that uses river sand. You may get panels back with spots not blasted but at least they aren't warped. HE knows when to stop. You can also razor knife off the finish and use a 7" featheredge sander for the rest. If you want some help or advice, feel free to email me at slammedbus@hotmail.com. I am currently looking for my father's 68 vertible (pipe dream I know)
As for "the plan". I always tell my customers. Sit down and decide "what do I want to do with my car?" Drive it, race it, show it? From there it is much easier to decide on a path to rejuvenation.
Oneday I would like to get my 69 blasted. Everyone has their likes and dislikes about each media which makes it difficult for me to choose one. There are several businesses here that provide media services but I have not done my homework on each business or made a visit to one just yet. Hopefully next week my 69 will be moved to where my engine guy place to see what the damage is.
My plan is to drive the car. If it is 100 percent show then it would be difficult to enjoy driving it. But hopefully media blasting is in the near future. Getting the engine running if first priority. Looking to see how far the rust is next. Should I am the car sanded down or at list have the rusted areas sanded down and worked on now? I would like to get the front suspension and the rearend in order (maybe or probably all new parts). Get the underside cleaned and treated. Get the engine bay cleaned and treated. Added interior parts would be last or "added as I go." But I keep coming back to the rust (which kills me). But hopefully in a week or two I will find out if the motor is still in working condition. I can't wait!!
Thank you everyone for all the advice. Please keep the advice coming this way even if I do not ask for it...remember I am not a gearhead. Ronfox@newhorizonscorp.com
I've read stories of cars being ruined, even by "professional" media blasters. If the job is turned over to the "new guy" that day, you could have trouble. On the other hand, nothing cleans the paint and rust out like blasting. Glass bead, plastic bead or walnut shell will remove paint. Something more aggressive and risky is required for rust. A lot will depend on being absolutely sure the person who does the job for you knows how to do this job without damage. The shop that cleans tractors is not the place to go.
Media does not work well on soft stuff, so if you plan to take off undercoat and sound deadening, it will be better to remove this chemically.
When you go looking for rust, pay close attention to the front and rear windows, floors, the lower dash and cowl area and behind front and rear wheels. After inspection, you may chose to drive the car for a while first, because once you get into repairing that much rust, its going to be a long time.
You ask about panels repair vs replacement. If you can cut out rusted sections and weld in patches, you will be better off repairing than attempting to make repro panels fit. The money you would spend on new panels, you can spend on a nice MIG welder and teach yourself. I think it could actually be less work unless the original panels are totally shot. The repro parts are not the correct shape, correct length, or correct gauge. Some are better than others. It takes a lot of work to get them looking okay and it still requires welding skills to fix them and to install them. In fact, I would say you cannot restore this car without owning a welder unless you fix it by writing checks.
Good luck with your project Ron and welcome to FGF.
I wonder if anyone has used the glass or bead media first to remove the paint and then go back and used something more aggressive on the rust? (Or would using the the more aggressive media at a very low pressure?) What aggressive media would you use?
Is media blasting used on the inside and underneath the car? (Or should I say every inch of the car)
I am trying to do all my homework before I do anything.
Let me start with saying that before I found this webpage, I knew nothing about working on cars - not much of a gearhead, but wish I were! Learned a TON about these cars just by reading up here, and posting some questions. I bought my '68 a couple years ago just "blindly" without knowing anything about them, except they looked cool. Hey, I know what I like!
Anyways - I was wondering if you could post some pics of the car in it's current condition. That may help some of the knowledgable guys here decide better what is your best route to go. If the thing is a rotten heap, then it may take a ton of work just to be on the road SAFELY. However, if it's just some rust on some of the body panels, and nothing structural (solid frame, etc) - then you might be able to do the mechanicals first and get the car on the road, and then work on the body.
You didn't mention - how is the interior?
Did you park the car over grass for 13 years, or pavement? If you parked it over anything "organic", then it's very possible your floors are rusted out too. You'll have to rip out the entire interior and replace the floors and carpeting.
As for frame-off restoration vs other methods - it just depends on your time frame and your end result. If you just want a presentable driver to have fun with again, then you might be able to skip the frame off job, assuming everything is safe. Also, depending on how much time or spare cash you have will depend on when you can start driving the car again. Doing the work yourself, you can save a bunch of money - but it could also take a few years of constant work (evenings, weekends, etc). And you'll need a 2 car garage to work in during that entire time. (or a large 1 car garage) Getting the work done by a shop might be quicker, but could still take a year, depending on what needs to be done, and the level of the work. Also, costs end up multiplying from the original restoration quote as more things pop up. It just happens.
Again - if you could post pics of the body, interior, engine, and undercarriage that would be helpful so we can help guide you in a direction.
Welcome to the board!!
'68 Firebird, 350-4, 2 spd auto, triple black, Dlx Interior
Ron, media blasting is like pelting the metal with billions of tiny body hammers. It work hardens the metal surface and much like smashing a piece of tin between a hammer and dolly, it alters the shape and reduces the thickness. It's not only the heat it generates that damages it, but the repeated blows of the media that effects changes to the panel. How much change happens depends on the media, pressure, angle, time, distance and the operator skill. It also depends how much shape the panel had to begin with. A part with high crown like the top of the front fender won't change shape as much. A flat panel, like a trunk lid will warp in a heartbeat with disappointing and impossible to repair results. Car panels are like mirrors. The slightest distortion shows as ripples and detracts from the appearance.
As Ashtray says, if you could crawl around the car with your camera and post photos, you'll get more feedback from folks here. The first step is to figure out what you have and what it will take to achieve your goals for the car. Right now, we don't know if your talking about a few rust holes in the front fender or a car looking like this $5000 project Camaro at Carlisle.
I finally put on new tires. One day this week my Bird will be transported to my engine guy. I will be able to study it better once it is at his place. My Bird is not even close to the Camero in the photo. It has rust in the normal places behind the back panels and some around the back window. Also alittle around the end of the hood. The truck is in good shape but I am not sure about the floor. I will find out soon. My engine guy thinks the rust is not bad at all (but to me any rust kills me)
The interior is not perfect but still in working condition except for the headliners which has partially down. Normal ware on the seats...bad seam...and the dash has a few cracks.
Stupid question here...tell me the easy way to post a picture.
Hey 68Bigbird...you said I have my messaging turned off...do you mean my personal computer? Email me again.
Ron, to put photos, upload them somewhere on the internet. You can put them with www.tinypic.com. Once youre photo is there, you copy the link to your picture from that site and post it here. You type in [img] your file location [/img]. Those terms in the brackets tell the board than an image is there.
There are other places to host photos. Look on www.google.com for "photo hosting". Lots of places let you store photos.
Butt welding followed by metal finishing and minimal or no filler produces the best repair. Skillful rust repairs can be made that only need high build primer. An auto body shop has to move jobs through quickly to make a profit, so you won't likely find an auto body shop who will make repairs that way. They tend to flange weld, get it close, and fill with plastic. Restoration work costs $60 per hour or higher. There are few shops doing this level of work.
Butt welded panels have to be carefully fit before welding. The time and skills involved make the process expensive. Flange welded panels just need some overlap, modest fit and then paved over with plastic. It depends on the level of restoration you want to achieve. It struck me you were after a high level of perfection when you said you wanted to do a body-off or frame-off restoration. If you don't want it as good as new, the frame doesn't need to come off. Did you get a chance to read Randy Ferguson's work?
So you saying that flange welding and plastic is not a good way to repair rust? When I find a person or business to do my welding I want to make sure I understand all the welding language and not look like I do not know anything. I would rather pay the extra money and have the job completed properly.(with butt welds) And I have heard people and tv people say to use butt welds. Surely I can find someone here to do Butt welds and metal finishing. Now when you say metal finishing do you mean that extra metal is put on the car??
I don't need a 100 percent show car where I would be afraid to drive it everyday or afraid to put the car in the elements. But then I do not want a car with rust. In the near future I would be happy to get rid of the rust and to repair any body work that needs to be repaired. I know I may ask the same questions more than once but what do you suggest? This is what I am thinking but you and everyone else in here knows more about the process and what it takes. I would like to get it running first. Next I would like to see how far the rust has developed. I would like to repair the rust...and it sounds like in here everyone recommends media blasting. (And media blasting requires removing everything on the car...engine, interior, etc. correct????)
Please give me steps, in order, on what should be done to the car: get the car running, see how bad the rust is (by sanding down, blasting...how?). Cut out rust and add patch panels, use butt welds and metal work, etc.
I just need to know the steps, in order, to take with my car. For example, if I do not blast my car how is the rust found and repaired...if not blasted is the whole car sanded down or sanded just where the rust is visible. I know I sound like I know nothing about a car but knowing the correct steps in order would save me time and stress.
I did sign up for the site you told me about. I have yet to read up on Randy Ferguson. There is so much information and help at that site just like this one. I will get back to you about Randy's site.
My '67 is my 2nd restoration and the 2nd car I had blasted with plastic bead. That is the method my paint and body man used for my Trans Am and it came out with perfect (non-wavy) body panels so I am sold on this process.
The plastic bead removes just the paint. It does not even remove the plastic filler under the paint or distort the panels.
The only difference I did this time was to strip the exterior trim off and then have the car beaded before I disassembled the car and put it back together. I found from the Trans Am that, while nothing was damaged, I was finding plastic bead dust behind things from years afterwards. Stripping the car and then taking it apart took care of that issue.
But the answers above are correct - plastic beading will not take care of rust issues. I would either recommend the plastic beading or a chemical dip process for that followed by panel replacement. I have noted that the professional restoration houses use the chemical dip method as most of the cars they start with have significant rust problems. My T/A was an Arizona car and my '67 a California car so I have managed to avoid the problem.
2012 Mustang Boss 302 #1918, Competition Orange. FGF replacement 2006 Mustang V6 Pony, Vista Blue. Factory ordered. 2019 BMW X3 (Titled to the wife, but I'm always driving it for her. So I'm claiming it) Old projects, gone but not forgotten: 1967 FB 400, original CA car. After 22 years of work, trashed by the guy who was supposed to paint it. I had to sell it. 1980 Turbo Trans Am 1970 Mustang fastback, 351C 4Bbl, auto 1988 Mustang GT, 5 speed 1983 F-150 4x4, built 302 1994 Chevy K2500 HD 4x4, 454 TBI
So your 67 Cali car had no rust when you beaded it? And you said you beaded your car before you disassembled it...is that correct? What did you disassemble? (Would it have been better to disassemble the car first then bead it?)
What about beading the car first then go back and use a harder media where rust is visible? (and filler, etc.)
Would the plastic bead dust soak up water? (which would be back the rust)
I pulled all the exterior trim, including bumpers, lights, emblems, drip rails, window moldings, door handles, wipers, etc. Then I had the whole body beaded except for the front fenders that I had already decided I was going to replace. After the car was beaded and primered, I brought it back home and began my frame off rebuilding process.
I would not worry about blasting to remove rust. Remember - rust does not sleep. At that point, you are going to want to cut out bad sections completely and replace either with patches or whole panels.
Check out some of those web sites I included in your thread over in the Tech section. They do a nice job in showing the work involved with dealing with rust.
And I was not able to completely get away from rust on my '67. The last owner before me went to UC Santa Barbara and had the car with him. The combination of tree debris under the window moldings and salt air from the ocean has left me with some holes around the rear window.
2012 Mustang Boss 302 #1918, Competition Orange. FGF replacement 2006 Mustang V6 Pony, Vista Blue. Factory ordered. 2019 BMW X3 (Titled to the wife, but I'm always driving it for her. So I'm claiming it) Old projects, gone but not forgotten: 1967 FB 400, original CA car. After 22 years of work, trashed by the guy who was supposed to paint it. I had to sell it. 1980 Turbo Trans Am 1970 Mustang fastback, 351C 4Bbl, auto 1988 Mustang GT, 5 speed 1983 F-150 4x4, built 302 1994 Chevy K2500 HD 4x4, 454 TBI
Definitely strip the car before abrasive blasting or you'll be finding grit for years to come. I am not sold on chemical dipping after having two cars done. Even with the phosphate coating they apply, the car is very susceptible to flash rust, the acid can get caught in crevices and work it's way out later (bubbling your paint) and worst of all, you'll have many closed cavities that are no longer protected because you can't get any paint inside.
Blasting of any type won't remove filler, tar or other very flexible substrates. It's best to remove these by other means to avoid damaging the part by blasting it too much.
More important than the type of media, find someone with experinece in abrasive stripping of body sheet metal and let them use what they are familiar with. Be prepared to get the car primered with a good epoxy primer immediately following the stripping process.
You can see pictures of my restoration on my website below.
So Salmon38 did your bead blasting remove all paint but not the rust? Why did you not have your car blasted to remove the rust? But actually to protect from warping it does sound better to bead blast the car to see where the rust is and then go from there. Was your frame ok or was it rusted?
Well, my bird finally made it to my engine guy yesterday. Hopefully there is nothing major wrong with the engine. This weekend I plan on taking pictures of the car including the rust. I will try and post the pictures online to see what everyone's advice is.
Has anyone every had to replace the frame on the Firebird? I wonder how much rust is on mine.
Yes, the glass beading removed all the paint and "highlighted" the small rust holes around my rear window by removing the weak metal around the holes. It also left most of the heavier bondo intact so I could see where the previous damage was.
I had no need for more agressive blasing as those few small holes are my only rust issue - this being a car that spent it's entire life in Southern California. The floor pans were beautiful as were all the suspension components. I just wire brushed the crud and undercoating off the bottom of my floor pans and repainted them. It may be hard to understand how clean an old car can be from So Cal or Arizona.
I replaced the subframe on my car because it was badly caved in from below due to bottoming out - not because of rust issues. The bolt-on subframe is one of the reasons I like working on these cars. However, it you have rust issues, you may find out like others that your subframe bolts are so rusted into the cage nuts under the floor that the cages break loose. My subframe bolts all came out pretty easily after just treating them for several weeks with PB Blaster.
2012 Mustang Boss 302 #1918, Competition Orange. FGF replacement 2006 Mustang V6 Pony, Vista Blue. Factory ordered. 2019 BMW X3 (Titled to the wife, but I'm always driving it for her. So I'm claiming it) Old projects, gone but not forgotten: 1967 FB 400, original CA car. After 22 years of work, trashed by the guy who was supposed to paint it. I had to sell it. 1980 Turbo Trans Am 1970 Mustang fastback, 351C 4Bbl, auto 1988 Mustang GT, 5 speed 1983 F-150 4x4, built 302 1994 Chevy K2500 HD 4x4, 454 TBI
How was the rust holes around your window repaired Salmon38? May I ask where you bought your subframe? (Are you happy with your subframe?) What about your rearend? Would you recommend PB blaster on my bolts?
You need to cool down and slow down a bit. Quit drinking coffee if that is the case. Wait on the booze till after happy hour (5 PM) if that is another distraction.
You sound just like me several years ago when I got my bird. I drove people nuts on this website and posted questions 24 hours a day because there was nobody around here to help me.
Most folks know about my "Wall of Shame" and my "Shelves of Shame". That means lots of extra FGF parts that you might need, and that I might have.
You, my lucky local pal, have me to help you. Give me a call and we'll have a look at your bird.
'68 428 HO M3 Monster, 4-on-the-floor! Need I say more?
I have not repaired my rear window holes yet. I will eliminate most of them by replacing the filler panel between the rear window and the trunk. I just got it last week, but won't be doing any body work until the car is running again.
I got both my posi rear end and my replacement subframe from Desert Valley Auto Parts north of Phoenix. While they do business world-wide, I only lived about 15 miles from them before I moved to Texas.
And yes - PB Blaster should be something you have stocked in your garage.
2012 Mustang Boss 302 #1918, Competition Orange. FGF replacement 2006 Mustang V6 Pony, Vista Blue. Factory ordered. 2019 BMW X3 (Titled to the wife, but I'm always driving it for her. So I'm claiming it) Old projects, gone but not forgotten: 1967 FB 400, original CA car. After 22 years of work, trashed by the guy who was supposed to paint it. I had to sell it. 1980 Turbo Trans Am 1970 Mustang fastback, 351C 4Bbl, auto 1988 Mustang GT, 5 speed 1983 F-150 4x4, built 302 1994 Chevy K2500 HD 4x4, 454 TBI
By beading before disassembly, I mean it was running when I took it to the body shop. Makes it much easier to get it to the shop. It was just stripped down as though prepping it for painting.
Since then I have stripped it down to the bare body and built it back up (subframe and suspension back on)
I will e-mail you some photos. Be aware they are are fairly recent as I have had this car since 1998 and did not have a digital camera until the last couple of years.
Last edited by salmon38; 08/19/0601:40 PM.
2012 Mustang Boss 302 #1918, Competition Orange. FGF replacement 2006 Mustang V6 Pony, Vista Blue. Factory ordered. 2019 BMW X3 (Titled to the wife, but I'm always driving it for her. So I'm claiming it) Old projects, gone but not forgotten: 1967 FB 400, original CA car. After 22 years of work, trashed by the guy who was supposed to paint it. I had to sell it. 1980 Turbo Trans Am 1970 Mustang fastback, 351C 4Bbl, auto 1988 Mustang GT, 5 speed 1983 F-150 4x4, built 302 1994 Chevy K2500 HD 4x4, 454 TBI
Hey, I know what I like! ![[Linked Image]](http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/919290/camaroforsale.JPG)
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