Holy Cow! Boy was I not prepared for a mouth full back from an eBay seller I was... just trying to help out this weekend.

There is a listing for 3 JS code Rally II's and a KS and the seller (from MN) claimed to have taken them off a 69 TA so thought I might let him know that the JS's didn't come out til 1970 after another eBay member tried to tell him that they were not correct codes for a 69.

Here's the listing and note the comment at the bottom and the seller mis-quoting the pontiac wheel website saying his wheels were for a 69

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190013461043&sspagename=ADME:L:RTQ:CA:1

So I wrote him a note just to politely back up what the other person said and maybe help date his wheels. I got back the following note:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thank you for your input.I dont know what Use sellers would do with out people like you.
I KNOW WE WOULD HAVE MORE TIME TO DEAL WITH BUYERS QUESTIONS NEXT! OR WASNT THAT A NICE WAY TO SAY MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's sad to know that such a person might own a 69 TA

Guilty conscience maybe Ernie or not man enough to admit they made a mistake.I always appreciate a friendly note on info about a part i may have for sale as it only makes for a better buyer/seller experience.Take it with a grain of salt Ernie :)You did good

David

I doubt he owns a '69 TA - since if he did, why would he be selling the "original" wheels from it?! Then again, they're not actually the original wheels according you, so that may be why he's selling them - but the math doesn't add up otherwise. If he had a '69 TA, he wouldn't be selling original parts off it, unless he was parting it out for some reason.

Then again, it's almost 2am here, so my brain is a bit mushy... so what do I know?!

Well, he didn't say they were correct for a T/A, just that they came off of one.
Maybe he's taking the more literal side. Remember, this is eBay afterall.

I meet a guy a few years ago in nothern Indiana that had the tags for the only red interior 69 trans am. He wanted to sell me the tags and a correct 69 TA body that he had bought from a friend on mine. He told me that the car would have to be rebodied and he had all the part to put it together.

I now see someone in ILL that is selling a car with the only red interior that is numbers matching.(85K has not meet reserve) The guy I meet had the PHS build sheet.

Should I email this guy and tell him my story or let it go and just tell you guys??


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pont...ryZ6427QQihZ012QQitemZ220011469751QQrdZ1

Steve, contact Jim Mattison at PHS with what info you have. Email to me and I will personally forward it.

[email protected]

Email him(the seller) and let us know what he says. It's a great story. The only red interior TA! He should be commended for bringing it back. Just think, if it wasn't for him it would be gone for good. Rebody or no he should get a pat on the back. Sweet car! Why don't you send him a link to this thread too? Man, I wish I had money to burn!

So you're okay with manufactured provenance, Jim? If you obscure the history of a clone or rebody or restoration well enough then it can be called original?

I'll pretend I don't see the wrong master cylinder and alternator on that "mint" restored car.

Nice car, yes, but call it what it is. If it's a blend, a rebody, whatever, just say so.

It's my dream car! The one with the red interior. I would rather it be garaged for it's whole life with 20K miles on it now but it's just not going to be. Weigh it; Crush or Rebody. I'll take rebody. As for the price, if I was really seriously with money I would scream to the high heavens that it was a rebody so I could get it cheaper. I still want it rebody or no! If it has the right tags it's as close as you are going to get to the red, white, and blue TA that they only made one of.
This reminds me of the comment I keep hearing from my significant other, "Those aren't real!"

The problem I have is that the car will not withstand the scrutiny of a detailed inspection. Compare broadcast sheets, billing history, PHS, VIN and vehicle and it will have a mismatch somewhere. The number of complete correct cars is small and continually shrinking and it's far better to rebuild than scrap but call it what it is. The history of that car needs to include whatever it takes to keep it alive, not to be hidden in hope that no one will ever know.

One of the coolest car show display I saw was at Rochester last year, a nice but not perfect Camaro. The owner had a photo album stretching back about 15 years, the car was rescued from a collapsed barn, and was total trash. He saved it, restored it, and drives it. That makes it more interesting than the average car. It's part of that car's history.

QUOTE"The problem I have is that the car will not withstand the scrutiny of a detailed inspection. Compare broadcast sheets, billing history, PHS, VIN and vehicle and it will have a mismatch somewhere"

Not neccesarily, if they went to the time and trouble rotisserie restoring a body that had already been a TA you may have found the only discrepancy already in the master cylinder. Looks pretty correct. I'm sure they swapped all the numbers. If the guy owns both TA's it's his business what goes on behind closed doors.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If the guy owns both TA's it's his business what goes on behind closed doors.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't agree with that. I could clone my car into an accurate copy of a '69 TA vert but it still would not BE a '69 TA vert. I could clone it into a Sprint but it still would not be a Sprint.

If the car is "numbers matching", I presume it is numbers matching to the red interior car, so what happens to the drivetrain and identity of the donor car? It ceases to exist, just so one option can be transferred?

The recipient car could have been left alone, the red interior could have been grafted into a "common" Firebird and with the transplanted tags and numbers no one would have been the wiser. Why lose one of the original TA's? Maybe the car it was built upon was not a TA at all...then would it be fraud? $85K and counting for a set of tags and a piece of paper?

There are hidden VINs, did he restamp them all? Are all the recipient car parts date correct for the build of the donor car? Lots of worms in this can, it would be nice to have a few hard facts to view.

QUOTE"I don't agree with that. I could clone my car into an accurate copy of a '69 TA vert but it still would not BE a '69 TA vert. I could clone it into a Sprint but it still would not be a Sprint"

No, not a good comparo. Your car isn't a 69 TA vert to start with. If you had a 69 TA vert and then bought some parts from another 69 TA vert with a different colored interior and swapped parts from one TA vert to another that would be a good comparo.

But why waste a $70K+ car (TA base) just to rebuild a basket case TA with the rare option?

I saw the show (chop cut rebuild) last night on Speed TV. They put together a new dynacore? 69 camero conv body. At the end of the show they talked about registering it and the owner of the shop said the best way was to get the tags from another 69 vert??? Promoting rebody on national TV is bad.

Jim G. 67 conv 400

You wouldn't understand if it's not your dream car!

I owned my dream car for 13 years. One of 13 built, rare, highly desirable, ultra high performance, and genuine. Life circumstances forced its sale. If I can't buy the same car back some day, I won't try to copy it, I'll enjoy something else.

I get it, a Mopar person in Pontiac clothing. They use screws to put the tags on Mopars because they get swapped so much. LOL

Let me add a little more info on the car. (I my be wrong on some of the info so do not take anything I say as fact) My concern was that when the car was offered to me (I saw it in person)it was totaly apart. The person who owned the car had 3 or 4 69 TA'S and he went around two building showing me all the parts that I could pick form so I believed or at least I came away with the impression that the car would be numbers correct not numbers matching and it would be rebuilt from parts that he had collected from years in the hobby from different cars.

My problem from this ebay car ad is, has the motor and tranny been restamped?

The reason that I did not buy the car (from my memory) was that it was not numbers matching in anyway. I loved the look of the cars red interior (how cool) but he wanted 40k for a car that was going to be rebodied, not number matching, and the market at that time for a numbers matching TA was around the same price.

I am not pointing fingers at anyone, old or current owner, but someone (if I am correct) is not telling the whole truth on this car and I believe that the new ebay owner needs to know or at least be able to ask the right question before they buy this great car at a hugh price.

So the question is what would you do?

Ask the right questions. Restamps on Pontiacs are obvious. Now it's 90K!

Mine is in the Mopar registry and was authenticated...it had an impeccable pedigree. There are just as many Mopar clones as Camaro clones, and it's no laughing matter, especially with prices elevated as they are now.

Authentication on Mopars is even easier than on Pontiacs because the body tag(s) lists every option, as does the body broadcast. And Galen Govier and a few others are respected authenticators. Without a body broadcast, factory records and/or dealer invoice, the car isn't authenticated.

I still have two body tags and three body broadcasts from 'Cudas I owned. I also submitted them to the registry, and if the cars ever resurface (not likely) then the new owners will receive the documentation.

Will the owner of the TA answer questions? Not mine, so far. I merely asked for the VIN and body tag data.

And as for the Rally Wheel seller in Cottage Grove, MN...we know who that is.

Vikki....As I was looking in my wifes Challenger T/A a few years ago I happened to find not only the the broadcast sheet for her car, I also found another broadcast sheet for a different Challenger T/A, It was for a FM3 pink car and a 4-speed.....I looked for the owner with no luck, So I then decided to e-bay the broadcast sheet for one cent and it could only go to the owner of THAT car. I never heard from that cars owner BUT I recieved many hate mails from people stating that if they were the high bidder then they expected to get that sheet off me. I also got many offers $$$$ to buy it from me. I said NO whereas we all know what they wanted it for. As for as the 1969 T/A....I think it should be shown in a replica class at any show.... It is a clone and changing tags with VIN's is also against the law.... just my 2cents

If you want to help get that Challenger sheet back into the hands of the real owner, PM me and I'll put you in touch with the right people.

will do....Although, I am very big into Mopars and have left the info in the hands of tha T/A Challenger registry for them to look out for it. I will PM you all the info on it.
THANKS

nope, if you've already sent it to Barry that's where I was going to send you. I used to work for Rapid Transit System, in Detroit...I learned a LOT about those cars.

Yes I make it a point to see him every year at Chryslers at Carlisle..In fact just got back from there a couple of weeks ago.

TA seller is not willing to disclose VIN "I understand the purpose of your question, but am leery of giving you the entire number because of cloning. I will give you most of it to authenticate the car if you'd like. "

If the car is the ONLY one with a red interior, it would be pointless to clone it...and impossible to title with the same VIN anyhow.

And you can't run a PHS without a VIN. I know all but the last 5 digits, so all he has to do is cough them up.

Someone is just supposed to drop $100K without questioning what they buy? If so, there are a lot of fools, and a lot of crooks to help them empty their pockets.

What do you want the vin for anyway?

If the car is one of one and is legitimate then it is an investment car.

You're not going to get anything out of the vin anyway. He knows it. What's the point?

wow Jim, this seems like the exact conversation you and I had about one of my cars

Anyone have a D80 tag!

At the risk of being wrong I will post what I have learned. Seller will not disclose entire VIN but offers to fax his copy of the PHS.

***retraction***Partial VIN provided indicates a Norwood build date around 8B was based on inadequate data, my database has only Norwood convertibles***

Headrests are bent bar that weren't used until a couple of months later, crossbar dash balls are later, and of course TAs were not released until March '69. Production info is pulled from the slowly growing database. Please contribute to it!

http://thefirstgensite.com/library/dbase1.htm

Full info has now been provided.

Well, it can run but it can't hide with that red interior! We will see it again.

Cowl tag info:
body tag reads
st69 22337nor507764 bdy
tr 214 5050 pnt
06A D80

Well, Jim, whattya think? With the info the body tags appear to have what it takes. Just waiting on PHS verification...and it still does not rule out a rebody, and no photos of the tags and stamped VINs are forthcoming.

Can anyone with a Norwood coupe chime in with the first 3 of the last 6 digits of the VIN plus the month and year of production?

Keep in mind that with a fifth grade education you could figure out what to tell the tag maker guy when you ordered the tag. They only cost $200 and they fool most people. I think what you would/should be looking at on this car is the quality of work done when he switched the vins. If he did a nice job switching them it's pretty much what he says it is. Then there is the stamping on the front of the engine block, date codes, ect. I doubt it's any where near numbers matching on the block. It's probably like John's ram air bird, correct(close) but not numbers matching.

A reputable Pontiac collector/restorer saw this car in the hands of its former owner, Mark, in Indiana. It was disassembled for restoration and was a good, restorable car. I will accept this reference without question. It appears that the car has now been restored.

I would still subject it to intense scrutiny in regards to stamped partial VINs, engine and trans codes and dates, originality of rivets, seam filler, etc. And a first-hand PHS would be essential.

So it's not a rotten egg?? I see you edited the rotten egg reference out. :rolleyes: Maybe just a little hard boiled.

Yes, I edited that when the seller produced tag and VIN. How the heck can you try to sell something like that without releasing data?

Releasing it to who though? He obviously didn't think you were a credible buyer or he would have bent over backwards to get you the info. You can bet he is catering to the people that he thinks are credible.