I have seen painted heat risers. I have seen unpainted heat risers. Which is correct? Maybe both. Find some original engine bay photos of cars fresh off the dealer lot. Make it interesting and get photos of cars from different assembly plants and different years. Or find someone with a collection of cars with low mileage that are in original condition and examine them. Oh, yeah, there was a member here with cars like that...but you kept arguing with him, too.
If I paint an Edelbrock manifold with Pontiac Blue Metallic, does that make it correct?
Jim C, what color is your heat riser?
Vikki 1969 Goldenrod Yellow / black 400 convertible numbers matching
I have seen so many inconsistencies with factory practices that there seem to be no absolutes. Bird glass, colored vs black seat belts, glovebox birds, undercarriage color, washer hose firewall routing, washer hose fender routing, comfortweave use, spare wheel color, jack color, sticker locations, and probably several that I have not thought of are all mysteries to me. Perhaps engine paint color is the same.
Yellowbird Quote:"Oh, yeah, there was a member here with cars like that...but you kept arguing with him, too."
Who's this you are talking about now? Are you taking things way out of context? What was I arguing about? Be specific and I will be happy to explain. This vague personal attack doesn't get anybody anywhere.
If you say that your engine should be purple some would believe, I would need more evidence. You want to call it arguing, so be it.
Yellowbirds Quote: "My engine is not "Pontiac Metallic Blue" in my November '68 built '69 400. Based on the information on this forum telling me it was wrong when I first signed on, I repainted it with the Hirsch blue. But every single component has the same paint underneath. I know mine is now wrong, but it's what people expect to see. When the engine is rebuilt I will try to find the original color. "
This sounds to me like you are the one who is declaring and not asking others opinions. At least I'm asking questions and showing a selection of pics. Just out of curiosity, who/whom was it that told you what the color was supposed to be when you first joined? I don't think it was me, I would remember that. Was there another arguer or pack of arguers then? Darn them arguers! I must have been a listener then.
It's hot pink and don't you DARE argue with me. When I took it off the booster there was pink paint in between. When I first joined everybody told me they were natural so I didn't paint it but someday I will find the original pink and paint it that color!
Mine is the wrong master, I know as I personally replaced the one that came with the car with a "fine quality AutoZone restored part". The original is in a box...but until I have a convincing reason to change it I won't bother.
I'm outta here for a couple of weeks. It's been an entertaining day.
Last edited by Yellowbird; 10/16/0607:05 PM.
Vikki 1969 Goldenrod Yellow / black 400 convertible numbers matching
Pardon, mind if I back up a bit here- I found this very interesting:
Quote
The HO's were called ram air 3 but didn't have the functional ram air.
I never realized that! '69 RAIII were the equivalent of the 68 400HO?! That would explain the similar "WQ" engine code for the manuals... However, don't the '69 TransAm RAIIIs have functional ram air?...what about GTOs? ...Hey...does this mean I have the same engine as a '69 TransAm?! I'm feeling a little gypped here... the '68 400HO is like the Rodney Dangerfield of high performance engines. BTW, it was more than just the exhaust manifolds- the 68 HO also has a different cam and carburetor (for the Manual tranny), which produced considerably more than the listed 5 extra horsepower. Everything is in the name! If I could call my HO a "Ram Air III" it would command considerably more clout in the collector world!
Yes, you have very close to the same engine as the 69 TA. The only different is the WOOOOOOWAAAAAAAAA when the engine sucks the air through the hood. One more good excuse to spring for buying the functional ram air parts. The WOOOOWAAAAAAA is even louder on the 400 hood than on the TA hood because the snouts are closer to the carb. Wait till you see the neighbors heads spin around when they hear the WOOOOOWAAAAAA. Seen kids fall off their bikes and grown women have.......
yeah, but in the original restoration, numbers matching game, its all about the original PHS. Even though I have a similar engine, a #s matching Ram AirI or Ram AirIII convertible would bring huge bucks, towards 6 figures, whereas mine couldn't be worth more than $40-$50k, all because of the "HO" name. In many ways, what I have is a '68 TransAm convertible, without all the hoopla behind the TransAm mystique. Its not fair!! ah well, its not about the money, and I'm never going to sell it, right?, so it doesn't matter.
Ram air, huh? Let me talk this over with my son. He seems to have a good instinct for these things- that's why I probably won't sell it. While its always been my dream to pass this car on to my kids, I sometimes question the practicality of hanging on to it for the next 20 years. So I asked my son Juan what he thought. "Juan, what would you think if maybe we sold the Firebird?" "WHAT!!!!!????? "Well, not right away, but after we finish restoring it, and we have some fun with it, we could sell it and save the money" (almost crying): "Whyyyyy? "Well, I could put the money in a fund, then you could go to a really good college like Stanford when you grow up" "NO DADDY!!!!! BAD IDEA!!! NO!"
(Juan is 3 years old. I took his advice. For now.)
He never liked the Firebird when it just sat in the garage. He called it "dirty" and "old" Then, after I got it running again and started taking it around the parking lot, I took him for a ride one day (just 3mph, no seatbelts for him yet). Even at 3 mph, he loved it, and every weekend he wants to take it out again!! Once I get the interior done, and take him for a real ride, I guess there's no way he's gonna part with this car....
As to the correct engine paint, it was quite abundant in the mid 70's, at least in the Baltimore area. The most common brand was NAPA's Martian Seniour, and there was never a shortage. If I recall, it even listed the years because of the other blue on the market, and the napa paint matched exactly.
As far as questions why things are different, the not having it on hand is a good possibility. If you work on hundereds of the same model & year cars, it's more than apparent that there are lots of differences because if something isn't availble when the line is running, they'll use anything that they can to get the cars down the line. Some may be worse than others, but it applies to all cars.
As to the correct engine paint, it was quite abundant in the mid 70's, at least in the Baltimore area. The most common brand was NAPA's Martian Seniour, and there was never a shortage. If I recall, it even listed the years because of the other blue on the market, and the napa paint matched exactly.
As far as questions why things are different, the not having it on hand is a good possibility. If you work on hundereds of the same model & year cars, it's more than apparent that there are lots of differences because if something isn't availble when the line is running, they'll use anything that they can to get the cars down the line. Some may be worse than others, but it applies to all cars.
I wasn't spray bombing engines yet in the 70's. With Merv's great experience and memory we now know what was going on. As he a stated, the spray cans matched perfectly. This points directly at there being one color that was predominant. I've worked on many GM assembly lines and I have to agree that there will be a small number of engines that will vary due to 'get er done' mentality.
Pictures are just plain invaluable. With some serious scutiny and a little deductive reasoning you can tell a lot from a picture. Like the stud being painted on Yellowbird's engine that points at the riser being installed and then painted. Actually, it looks like it was painted, installed and then painted again. That would tend to disqualify at least some of the paint as 'factory' paint. Another great example of the value of a picture and reasoning is found in the picture of Rodericks car that is said to have 10,000 miles on it and then totaled. As the story goes it was walled in a garage and never touched again. One of the most revealing things about that engine picture is that the water pump appears to have been painted separately from the rest of the engine and at a later date. If it isn't the original water pump then the original did not last very long.
This is where it would be nice to find someone who painted the power plants. My '68 GTO's mill was the metallic blue, and I know there wasn't a re-paint. As I recall my convt was not to far off in the #'s from Vikki's by a week or so maybe. But it now has an incorrect block so I don't know the correct color. My cammer-6 (late build) is the metallic blue, and all the '69 cammers I've seen are metallic blue.
Over on the PY site some people have been talking about getting all the ram Air hood stuff back on a RA III. One person says it was an option on a RAIII. Are they looking for something that never was on that car? http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=493290
You would have a 400HO. You bought yourself a set of exhaust HO manifolds? What else did you get? The cam may be slightly different too. Does a ram air 3 car say 400HO on the PHS? What would you call a regular 400 car that was ordered with the air inlet? Would that be a ram air 3 also?
It sounds like the 400HO was a "poor man's Ram Air". Geoff's 69 option list doesn't have prices, but I'll bet it added about $150 to the price. For a 21 year old in 1969, that was big bucks.....
Firebird HO was $199 Firebird 400 $347 manual coupe $331 manual vert $431 auto coupe $416 auto vert
ram 4 $558 ram 5 +$76
no prices listed for 'ram 3' or 'air inlet' these options are not listed in Red Book
Found a footnote in an old Pontiac book that says 69 ram air three had a different carb and the blocks were drilled for four bolt mains but have two bolt caps.
To the best of my knowledge, "Ram Air 3" was really applied only to the GTO where "400 HO with Ram Air Induction" was for the Firebird in the sales literature of the rime. (Or "time" if my typing was better!)
The way I remember it, Ram Air 3 was named so because it was the Ram Air system that was one step below the Ram Air 4. Ram Air 4 got its name from the 4 cold air inlets to the Ram Air system installed on the GTO with the round port head motor (L67, I believe). The lower two inlets were dropped for cost considerations, and Ram Air 3 was added to the list of GTO engine options simply because "Ram Air 4" stuck.
Here's my theory that fits with Q's theory: It's a 69 Trans Am thing. The cars without the round ports were still ram air because of the standard Trans Am air inlet. So a 69 Trans Am that's not a ram air IV, or ram air V, is a ram air III. I think the 70 400 TA is a ram air III too. Maybe even other years but that's another gen.
The 1969 Pontiac Sales Manual refers to the 335 HP engine option as the 400 HO in the section marked with a tab that says Engines. It lists the same engine as 360 HP in the GTO. The Performance Options tab shows a picture of a GTO hood with a caption that reads,"Hood-Ram Air (Code 611 - UPC T42)". The paragraph below says that it was "available as a regular production option on the Firebird 400 4-barrel, Firebird 400 H.O., GTO 400 4-barrel and GTO 400 H.O., engines only, with or without air conditioning." There is nothing in the pricing section that lists the Ram Air hood as a stand alone option. It has to be part of the engine package.
The Judge page refers to the engine as a "400-Cu.-In., 366-HP, 4-BBL, Ram Air V-8" and it lists "Ram Air IV Engine" as an option.
Under the Prices tab it lists under Engine Options: Sales Code 348 UPC L74 "400, 4 Bbl, Ram Air" $350.72 with a Turbo 400 or a 4 speed and $434.97 without. Sales Code 347 UPC L67 "400, 4 Bbl, Ram Air IV" $832.03 Not available with air conditioning.
The Trans Am section refers to the base engine as a 400 HO.
As inconsistent as the book is, it never mentions a Ram Air III.
It sounds very much like "Ram Air III" was just a marketing ploy to make the existing 400HO more sexy- and it certainly worked- to this day the Ram Air III is highly sought after while any mention of 400HO gets a reply such as "no dude- the HO was a 350 engine" Its funny, people get all worked up about the Ram Air mystique... don't get me wrong, cold air induction is cool- (no pun intended)- but the real performance from the RAII and RA IV came mostly from the cam and heads, no? Pontiac marketing was pretty sharp to latch on to that fervor and add an $85 cold air package to an existing motor to create RAIII with no additional engineering needed. Then, put this RAIII in this exciting new TransAm model- and you've got a legend.
John's Quote: "There is nothing in the pricing section that lists the Ram Air hood as a stand alone option. It has to be part of the engine package."
Funny thing about that is I know of a ram air IV car that was billed for the engine package and the air inlet on the same sticker. The owner refered to it as 'double dipping' on the salesman's part.
Found the direct quote:
"Update: Just looked at window sticker for my 69 RAIV firebird. First cost option is : 347 Firebird RAm Air cosists of 4 bbl 400 ram air eng ,hood ram air inlet - chrome rocker covers & oil cap -dual exhaust ,heavy duty battery -f 70 x14 red or white stripe tires -unless other optional equip. specified. code 347 $850.99
Then near the bottom of another 23 options there is listed : Hood Ram Air Inlet code 611 $ 84.26 Looks like a case of double dipping to me!"
FICTION: '69 T/A have a under dash bracket to 'open' the Ram Air. (While the '69 RA 400 Firebird cars have this, the '69 T/As do not. This published myth can be read on page 113 and 45 of the Fabulous Firebird).
