Has anyone anywhere at anytime seen positive proof of a GTO or early Firebird (pre-corporate engine) that came from the factory equipped with a Chev engine? I'm getting very tired of the myth that some did and I would like to be able to say without reservation that it DIDN'T HAPPEN!!!

My Canadian Master Parts Catalogue for '67-'76 Firebirds issued by General Motors of Canada Limited in Oshawa, Ontario has nothing but PONTIAC POWER in it. Canadian Pontiacs did indeed come with Chev engines from the factory but only the run-of-the-(cheap)mill car lines, not the muscle cars!

Never heard of a 65-70 GTO or Firebird with anything other than a Pontiac mill. All the reference material for the GTO and Firebird that I have make no mention of non corporate engines anywhere.

I did see a later GTO with a Chevy or Olds motor, built in Canada. That was a long time ago, and the specifics escape me.

TOHCan,

You sure there were early Firebirds built in Canada? I come from a family of GM'ers and live not 10 minutes away from Oshawa. My bird was sold in June of 68 from a dealer in Weston, ON (Toronto), about a half hour down the highway, yet the VIN says it was built in Lordstown, OH.

I'm thinking parts came through GM Canada but the cars came from the U.S.

Again, I could be wrong...

Tom, from the factory? Can you remember any other details? Even the Grand Am of the early seventies received the Pontiac 400, and the last GTO in '74 had a Pontiac 350. The high profile Firebird and GTO deserved nothing less!

The early 'Birds were all built in the USA as far as I know. Later Firebirds were built in Canada. Were there any GTOs built in Canada? Any idea when/if production started in Canada for the Firebird and GTO? It would be after the time period in question but just curious. My '65 Parisienne (Grand Prix) could have been ordered with a full line of Chev engines, including (yup) a four-speed, dual-quad posi-traction 409! Saw a '65 Custom Sport convert with the single 4 bbl 409 for $250 but it had the right rear quarter caved in - shouldn't have passed on that one!

By the way, I've recovered and am restoring and documenting the only known '68 Camaro equipped from the factory with a Pontiac OHC six. This was built by Chevrolet to evaluate whether they should develop a high-hp version of the Chev six to compete. According to the inter-office memos, the engine was back-doored to Chev by John Z just before he was offered the position as the youngest manager of Chevrolet. When Chev found they couldn't build their six to match the upcoming hemi OHC, GM canned Pontiac's development program completely, including the proposed X-body OHC (the Ventura still appeared with the Sprint label but without the OHC engine). John Z left in '73 after his efforts to hotrod another econo engine, this time the Vega four cylinder, was met with resistance. The Cosworth Vega eventually made it into production but way down on output from John's days.

I'm wanting to preserve this example of inter-division politics and maneuvering for future generations to see.

Very cool! Good luck with that project.

I have an uncle who was a senior exec at the GM St. Catharines, Ontario plant back in the mid-70's. He told me recently that he, for a few years running, got a new Firebird each year as his company car. So perhaps you are correct that they did make Firebirds in Canada. To me, if you were an exec, it would make sense to get a car that was in fact made in your own plant.

I could fire off an e-mail to him to see what he knows and pose the GTO question to him as well.

If you would, I would greatly appreciate it.

Also ask him what he knows about the "loophole" that the early Trans Am racers ('68/'69) used to allow them to race Firebirds before Pontiac had a competitive engine - they put a Firebird grill on a Camaro! This was allowed based on the myth that "Canadian" Firebirds could have Chev engines because Pontiac cars in Canada came with Chev engines. And it keeps coming up on Pontiac sites as trivia. It didn't happen, it was a trick!

Never knew that!

I'll definitely ask about that one too. It may take a couple of days but I'll get an answer for you.

That's what the myth was based on. The Pontiac guys either had to race the OHC six - which some did with modest results - I know one of them - or come up with a way to use a V-8 engine of the right size. They convinced the officials that they should be allowed to use the Chev 302 for the "reason" stated.

I'm not so sure that the officials were fooled , I suspect that they wanted to get the number of cars competing up. This is based on many years of racing and officiating.

During the performance wars, the battle was just as big, if not bigger, within the GM divisions. So I doubt that any head brass of any division would have allowed one of its cars to leave the plant powered by other than the division's engines. Maybe divisons may have done so, and maybe after the performance wars, but during the performance wars, I doubt that John Poncho Deloran would have allowed one of his cars to roll out of one of his plants with other than Pontiac engine. That would have been about the same as chevy or ford sending out cars with the other's engines.

It's MUCH more difficult to prove that there is NONE of something than to prove that something exists. I can't document this but I saw a 1st gen Bird with a Chevy engine that the owner was absolutely certain it came that way from a dealership in Canada. The guy was so credible that I took him at his word. Since then, I always thought it to be true. I'm going to make a concerted effort to prove that there was at least one 1st generation Firebird or GTO/Lemans that was sold with a Chevy power plant. This will include possibilities like strike built cars and also dealer installed engines. You will never prove that there are none. If you look extensively and find none then there may not be any.

There were also a lot of engineering mules built in Detroit, and a lot of X coded castings. Most were never destined for ownership.

Brent, it would be great to see pics!

I'm sure this isn't any new info to most but I'm going to throw it out there to prove that there was the 'opportunity' for GM to put Chevy engines in Pontiacs in the 60's. One Pontiac that was produced in Canada, the Beaumont, had Chevy power plants. ONLY Chevy power plants. So, all the parts were on hand to do the deal. At least in an A-Body. Would this make it really tempting for a Canadian dealership to slap a Chevy drive train in a Bird or GTO? For that special customer? I think so. I sent some inquiries out into the GTO world. We will see what comes back. It should filter on over to some of the major Firebird brainchildren too.

These guys may know:
http://gmcanada.com/english/maintenance/parts/parts_vint.html

There was a Canadian dealer-modified version of the GTO Judge called the Jury, but they all had Pontiac engines. This might also contribute to the myth.

" "The Jury" was an option package on a LeMans that was dreamed up by Stampede Pontiac Buick in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. They sold 26 of these cars with the idea that they could offer a lower-buck car that had the performance of a Judge without being a Judge. That's where the "Jury" name came from. All where Palladium Silver with a blue interior. The each featured a fireball "The JURY" decal on a black bumblebee stripe across the rear quarter panel with a 69' Judge spoiler. "

TOHCan ... these guys were/are in your neck of the woods. Any chance you remember this?

Not only was there opportunity, Jim, that was the norm! All the Pontiacs that I know of built in Canada used Chev engines, including the Beaumont SD, which a friend of mine has. All my Pontiacs, OTHER than my Firebird - which was built in the USA and sold in Canada, and the '70 GTO that I briefly had, had Chev engines. Only the GTO and Firebird had the "American Blue Block" as it was known up here.

Dealer installed anything to me is just one level above someone modifying the car at home, so that doesn't count as a factory car. It has to be an early Firebird or GTO with a Chev engine that was installed on the assembly line. Nothing else counts.

That's what this myth was perpetrated on, and that's what I want to debunk. And that's why I appreciate everyone's help with this, whatever the reason behind it!

I'm still tracing paperwork for the '68 Camaro OHC, which is even harder because of the lack of record-keeping on prototypes (development mules as Vikki pointed out) and of course the reluctance of Chev people to admit that Chevrolet suppressed Pontiac development of cars when it perceived a performance threat to their cars, especially their highest profile car. I don't pretend to know the motivations behind what happened or why John Poncho moved over to John Chev then finally to John Renault. I guess I shouldn't have spilled the beans so soon, looks like I may have stirred up a hornet's nest.

Vikki, I was going to do that but I think it might result in some hate email!

Q, the only GTOs I remember from that time was the '69 Judge that my uncle brought home that year and the '70 convert that I got a ride in one summer that had the "Tiger Button" - vacuum operated exhaust cut-out. I'll call some people, I didn't realize the "Jury" was from Calgary! I'm sure someone still remembers.

The reason why firebirds were allowed to run in trans am racing with the the chevy 302, was that it was possible to order a canadian firebird with the complete z28 package...


Just think of it.. -A Firebird Z28...

How many were actually made from the factory, I don't have a clue about..
Hope this helps..

I'm getting a lot of GTO experts being very sure that there were not any GTO's built with Chevy engines. Anybody know Paul Roolf?

Claus, that is what this thread is about, to try and prove that a Firebird was a Firebird regardless of where it was sold. They never came with Chev engines from the factory! They were all built in the USA! ZERO-28s were made at the factory!

I'm very willing to agree with your statement - if anyone can provide proof!!!

As I mentioned, I personally know some of the guys who were racing in Trans Am at the time and their choices were to race the OHC or lie about Canadian Firebirds. The OHC wasn't competeitive, so - they lied! And as a result, the myth appeared and is still being spread! The car used was a Camaro with a Firebird grill - maybe you could order one that way from Chevrolet!

Jim, I suspect the GTO is free from this myth, as it had only one purpose - to allow a Firebird to run in Trans Am with a V-8 engine - but some people lump the GTO in as one of the Canadian Pontiac muscle cars. Thank you for using your connections on this, I realize it is very hard to prove the nonexistence but I gotta try!

I know they 'camouflaged' camaros as firebirds..

-The stories I read also only claimed that it was technically possible to order your bird w. the chevy stuff, since they already used chevy components in some of the other pontiacs, but if it was ever done.. -well that is what this thread is all about as you say..

My memory is clearing up a little and I can remember the particular car I saw. It was at Jeff Carachi (spelling) house in the Detroit area(vague, can't remember exact city). He said he got the Bird from the original owner and it was always Chevy powered. I didn't question it. The car was still all together and wasn't that impressive because I wasn't a big Chevy power fan at the time. I remember he seemed to be ready for me to say it wasn't true but I didn't question the cars validity/history. This was about 13 years ago. I know it means nothing without producing the car and vin but it is a little, very circumstancial, evidence. I remember that it had a 307 or maybe he said it was a 302. This was before I owned my 69 Z's so I didn't know much about the 302 at the time or I would have dug into it.

Oh,- and regardless of whatever engine it's packing it surely will always be a Firebird in my opinion (especially if the engine is GM anyway) -Just my 2 cents ;-)

Beauty is more than skin deep, but I like mine without the "Heart" transplant!

Ha ha.. I know what you mean..

Personally I don't care.. (I have my original 350 totally restored with also restored original powerglide tucked away, -now I'm actually running a chevy 350 (around 450-470 hp) and a beefed up 4 speed th200r4, w.12 bolt moser 3.73) .. -So it's my way of preserving the numbers matching parts without ever to be sorry about anything being broken..


There is a whole program (40 mins.) about the Firebird TA, from www.mpihomevideo.com -they have alot of cool musclecar programs to check out..

My siting can be debunked if anyone knows Jeff Carachi(spelling, sorry). Another clue about him is that his wife did rechroming of dash bezels. Maybe someone knows him and his where-abouts? The guy deals a lot of full size Pontiacs. He brought many back from out west when he lived there for years and then moved back to Michigan.

No 1st gen FB's were built in Canada, so none were EVER released with chevy engines from the factory.

I asked 2 relatives on this one:

1 is retired and worked in the St. Catharines, Ontario GM plant that forges/assembles Chevy engines - he worked there from the '50's to 90's. The other was a senior exec at GM Canada. Both I'd say are reputable sources but what info was offered, though worthy, will not bust the myth that Pontiacs - Firebirds or otherwise - had Chevy engines installed. But it may be getting us closer. Here's what I got:

The St. Catharines plants (3) produced these Chevy engines: 283, 307, 327 and 350. These engines were produced for both the Canadian and U.S. marketplace. The plant in St. Therese, Quebec produced body components, etc and all was assembled in Oshawa, Ontario. What couldn't be recalled is if Firebirds were assembled in Oshawa (do we have any Oshawa members here to answer this?). 400 engines were produced in the U.S. for GM Canada.

Some interesting points:

1. Relative #1 said Chevy blocks made in St. Catharines were once painted red and later changed to black when U.S. consumers were asking why some American Chevys assembled and sold in the U.S. had red engines when others were black. Does anyone out there have a Pontiac with an original red engine?
2. Relative #2 said the myth is true. He had a personal experience of driving an early 70's Pontiac Bonneville through upstate New York and stopped for gas and an oil check. The mechanic asked why such a new car would need to have the engine replaced; that it wasn't a Pontiac engine in the car because the dipstick was on the wrong side. Relative #2 explained that it was a Chevy engine installed at the plant. Also, Relative #2 said that Pontiac owners who had Chevy engines installed felt ripped off (they called these cars 'Cheviacs') and that they filed a class action against GM (if true, then this class action would be archived somewhere. I couldn't find it but do we have any lawyer members out there who'd know where to look?).

I did locate the term 'Cheviac' (and 'Pontelet') in a Hemmings book about Pontiacs (see the Table Of Contents in the link). Does anyone have this book who can share its contents? Seems it's no longer in print.

http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/htmy/0917808592.html

Good update, Mark, but the myth pertains only to Firebirds. See what you can find out specifically about them. Sounds like you have some good sources and clues!

Yep...really tough to establish beyond a doubt if this pertained to Firebirds at all. I have it that Firebirds were eventually produced in the St. Therese, Quebec plant up to 2002. The myth most likely doesn't pertain to FGFs but stands a good chance of pertaining to later generations.

Will keep diggin'!

Relative two has a very believeable story/recollection that would make the possibility of a Chevy engine in a Firebird more probable then it was without this evidence. IMO

The big Pontiacs all had Chev engines into the early seventies. My friend's father's '75 Bonneville had a 455. Neither fact has any impact on the Firebird myth in my eyes.

The myth that I reacted to recently was that Pontiac muscle cars sold in Canada were available from the factory with Chev engines. The only two Pontiacs that I consider muscle cars are the Firebird and the GTO. If you want to get picky, you could say that the Firebird is a ponycar, and therefore isn't part of the myth. I think we've concluded that no factory GTO ever came without a Pontiac engine under the hood, so technically the myth is busted. But since the root of the myth was the need to slip a Firebird into the Trans Am series by using a Chev engine and was accomplished by inventing a loophole, the only info that is important is proving that a first gen Firebird came from the factory with a Chev engine - or that no FGF ever did. I know I'm probably one of the few that is bugged by the myth - but that's me!

I remember specifically the attempt at a class action suit when Cadillacs in the late seventies received the corporate (Chev) engines instead of a Cadillac engine. Were they justifed?

In looking up Pontiac crankshaft info, I did see a listing for a '69 303 CID limited production. Possable that was used for the T/A racing.

Who was ever misguided by the supposed Canada myth?

The same folks that were buying in to the infamous European FORD myth? Big Ford CID production for that European Autobahn Highway with no speed limits?

Well I was there, and it never happened. Just alot of mini-cars with FORD stamped on them in Europe.

My bottom-line Mercedes drove at over 180 KM per hour and that beat pretty much anything but a SAAB and a Porcshe.

Tom, that was the size of the engine destined for the Trans Am series but the development was too late and slow for the Pontiac guys who wanted to compete. That's why they started the myth.

Nash, it's an insidious right-wing plot! Even Pontiac people that should know better have been sucked into this myth, to the point of listing it as FACT!

http://www.pontiacpower.net/fact.html

Scroll down in the "Facts" to the late '60s and you'll find the myth.

"Many Canadian Pontiacs, including the Canadian specific muscle cars, used Chevrolet engines."

Ok, so it doesn't say Firebirds but let's recap:

- we have a Hemmings publication referring to Cheviacs and Pontelets,
- we have a first-hand account from a former senior exec at GM Canada that Chevy engines were put in Pontiacs, and that included Firebirds,
- we now have this link that states it as 'fact', although there's no mention of Firebirds and there's no source given to substantiate the 'fact'.

I said in my last post that I was going to keep digging. I've been pursuing the angle of trying to have someone from the St. Therese, Quebec local branch of the CAW (Canadian Auto Workers) union contact me with any testimony to this claim. As said, St. Therese produced Firebirds in Canada until their last production year in 2002 (the plant was shut down that year as a result).

But what'll this get us? So what if they say it's true? I think that, unless we get something as concrete as (for example) something once published on GM letterhead, it'll remain an unverified myth that everyone has a right to agree with or not.

I'm leaning towards 'fact' but try proving it..that's another story.

There have been several posts mentioning when they stopped making Firebirds in St. Therese. There is no mention about when they started making Firebirds in St. Therese. I guarantee you it was a long time after 1969. They only made them in Lordstown and Van Nuys. I don't think they even made them in Norwood until the second generation but I'm not sure.

I worked at Lordstown when I was in college. It doesn't make me an authority on the Firebirds they built there since they were making J2000's, Cavaliers, and full size vans at the time. I did see a few old records, in the Labor Relations archive of all places, that mentioned Firebird production. A few of the old timers told me the Firebirds were assembled on the same assembly line as full-size Chevy's. It's hard to imagine.

John,

My one relative who was once a GM Canada exec said he believes FGFs in Canada were assembled in Oshawa, Ontario. As for St. Therese, I have it that assembly started there well after '69, though FGF body parts are said to have come from there. Again, all of this is based on recollections from those in my GM family here.

By the way, my VIN says my '68 rolled off the line in Lordstown...one of many thousands.

All first gen Firebirds have the assembly plant code in the VIN. It is either U (Lordstown), N (Norwood) or L (Van Nuys). If every first gen built in the U.S. had a Pontiac engine no matter where it was sold, and every first gen was built in the U.S., then all first gens produced for sale had Pontiac engines. Find a first gen with a different assembly plant code or a documented engine code other than a Pontiac code and then we can have a topic to talk about.

There's a guy in the UK with an Antwerp (Belgium)- built Firebird. It has a Sprint OHC, of course. No question about that being a Pontiac motor. I forgot to check his VIN to see what the plant code was. Duh!

Yes, I've been wondering about the export-assembled cars. I think they are L code for European exports. Can you ask him?

Car-in-boxes...local content (assembly and paint) for trade reasons.

All known documentation of Firebirds points to the fallacy of the myth, with no verifiable facts to back up the claim.