Changing from Manual to Power.
I can get the wide or close ratio, but I don't have a core and they are expensive. I can get a used but don't know the ratio for $75.

Does it really matter? Anyone changed and noticed the difference in ratio?
Maybe just keep it manual?

Just seems to be turning into a pain to change it over.

Get the close ratio, they are awesome. You can count the turns to determine if it's close ratio. Most boxes out of 69's are close ratio.

I really benefitted from the variable quick ratio box (2.4 turns lock to lock) when using my Firebird for autoslalom events. Even had a guy claim that it couldn't be stock, too fast!

You can figure out the ratio of the used one pretty easy. David Pozzi has some good info on his site on identifying and/or determining the ratios.

I took out my original variable ratio power steering box and replaced it with a stock box with faster ratio gearing. The steering response and feel is greatly improved. I kept the old one and bought the new box without a core from Advance Auto Parts. It was not as expensive as the ones in the Pontiac catalogs. If you're interested, I'll look up the part number and price I paid.

I would appreciate that John.

I too need a new box, mine leaks up at the top where the shaft/coupler comes out near the firewall. I'm guessing once they start leaking they are toast and must be replaced?

There is a small seal at the top where the shaft comes out. If your box is working great and it just needs that seal a good shop will replace that seal for very cheap if you take the box to them.

That exact leak is the reason I replaced mine. I should have asked Jim.

I'll dig through the dreaded receipt box this weekend to find the number and cost of the quick ratio box I'm using now.

Wonder'n, what was the original ratio? About 3.5?
Never really thought about it.

67 and 68 were around 3. 69 Firebird is 2.2. I had a 2.06 on my 69 Z. You can get aftermarket ones that are less than 2 but a 2.2 gives you a nice, tight turn.

This is what I used. I'm very pleased with the result. Don't expect concourse appearance. The casting numbers are ground off and the whole box is painted black.

http://www.partsamerica.com/Product...mber=276509&parttype=255&ptset=A

That's a good deal. I've seen a new one sell for $300-$400.

If I remember correctly, the '69 variable ratio box was about 17 in the middle going to about 12.5 at the ends. A WS6 box was a constant 14:1 or so but the main difference was the spool valve, which was calibrated for higher effort (less assist), giving better feedback.

Good box - what is needed to use one of these in an FGF? Pitman arm change?

Under power it's 16 in the middle and 12.4 at the ends(69). I have the 69 and the WS6(79). I like the way my 69 steers better than the 79.

I had mine converted to 12.5:1 and love it. With all the suspension upgrades it drives like a newer car. The conversion was pricey, but you can use a box from a 93-98 or 99 Jeep Grand Cherokee. It's a complete bolt in from what I've read except that you need to get some inexpensive flare adapters. The SAE hose fitting threads even match the metric threads. The Jeep box will give you 12.5:1 with stops that are better matched to the FGF than like boxes from other GMs.

Whattya mean theyre better matched than other boxes, Hammered? I have a 14:1 and one thats about 20:1 (if I remember right), but was contemplating getting a box from a 3rd gen to try out.

Mine required NO MODIFICATIONS. It dropped in with all other stock parts. When I first drove the car, I thought something was wrong with the power steering because of the increased effort. At first, I thought it didn't feel right for a '69. After about 15 minutes I never looked back. It just feels better. I've still got my original steering box, but I don't really miss the nice Saginaw "S" or the casting numbers, so I'll keep it on the shelf. Maybe, I'll hang it on the wall in the Firebird Garage, Museum, and Hall of Fame. Naw.

All the research I did says a 3rd gen box will fit and the stops are properly matched. Better be right, because I already bought everything to do it.

You need to press in some adapters for the hoses and a different rag joint which I got off a 1983 Chevy pickup.

The 3rd gen stops are not correct from what I read. That's why I said the Jeep box is a better match. I don't think it matters that much because you'll have the same problem that wider tires cause - rubbing on the frame rails.

Ahhh, I see. So youre sayin it turns too far? Lock to lock...
Only the Grand Cherokees fit? No other model Jeeps?

Hammered Quote, "The 3rd gen stops are not correct from what I read. That's why I said the Jeep box is a better match. I don't think it matters that much because you'll have the same problem that wider tires cause - rubbing on the frame rails. "


Pardon my French, but that is BS. The stops are not part of the box. The wheels can only turn so far no matter which box you have. There is no way in heck that you can change the box and make the wheels rub.

Actually I was told you don't want the box stops to be the limiting factor. They were not designed for taking the stress of full lock. So better to have a box with slightly more travel than less.

This is the supposed travel limits between 1st gens and 3rd. They look pretty close.

1967: 17.5:1, 35deg

1968: 17.5:1, 31deg

1969:16-12.4:1, 32deg 15min

1987 thru 93
12.7:1, 35 deg, 32 deg (high effort)
14:1, 35 deg

Right. You want the stops on the car to be the limiting factor.

I should state those numbers are for the box only, and not for the suspension limits.

The box I bought was a first gen box with faster ratio gearing. No compromises, alternate rag joints, ... yadda, yadda, yadda.

Why you would want something from a Jeep or a third gen is beyond me.

Used 3rd gen box $60. Rag joint $5. Day in the yard peruesing for various parts.... priceless. The adapters were around $8 with shipping (shipping was like half the cost I think). Total cost about $75.

Also, the steering effort is higher. Right now with my setup, I can turn the wheel practically by blowing on it.

Sure I didn't get all new parts, but if I don't like the effort or the ratio, I have a slightly slower box with a little less effort(still faster and more effort than stock) waiting in the wings that I paid even less for. Plus again, I actually had a fun day looking through the yard.

If you want to argue about stops in the box, call Chip at: http://www.powersteering.com/ He will talk to you all day about power steering boxes even if you have no intention of buying anything from him. His whole life is GM power steering boxes. I don't recall the details, but somehow the box stops work in conjunction with the steering arm stops.

Here are some other good resources in descending order of usefulness to learn about power steering:

http://jimshea.corvettefaq.com/?page_id=5

http://www.chevelles.com/techref/ftecref29.html

http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofstr.htm

http://www.67camaro.net/tech/steering.htm

I don't claim to be an expert, but I don't jump in on topics unless I believe I know something about them or have direct experience. As I said, from I've READ, the box stops are important and the Jeep Grand Cherokee, '93-98 or 99 is virtually a direct bolt in swap and is a better match than the 3rd gen f-body and much easier to get than the mid '80s Monte SS or GN boxes.

Sorry John. I was just pointing out that the stops on the steering would limit the box from making the tire rub.

Even in the case of tires that don't rub, poorly matched components can cause dangerous issues.

Daimler-Chrysler had a little-publicized issue with 1st generation Durango and Dakotas, where the steering box would allow the driver to make very, very tight turns. Turning was limited only by suspension components. Downside is that the control arms would visibly flex on tight turns, and ball joints would fail in as little as 30K miles.

I would prefer that the gearbox provide the limits, not the suspension.

Mike & John

Both good points. Sorry for the pissy post.

No. That's not how it's supposed to work. The gear box is not designed to provide the steering limits. There are bump stops on the steering that provide the proper limits. At least on our first gens. That's exactly why I pointed it out the first time. To get rid of the misconception that the box was the limit. Our boxes are designed to never go to their limit of travel.

And if you really don't believe me, go out and turn your steering all the way and look at what stops it.

I think statments towards the Cherokee box being a better match than the 3rd gen box refer to swapping in a early A-body. The data in two of the threads John listed, support this. An A-body better matches a Monte SS, Buick GN, or a Cop Caprice. But those are not easy to find compared to a Cherokee. If you used a 3rd Gen F on an A-body, you would hit the stops prematurely, thus affecting your turning radius. Any of the above would work fine on our Birds. Depends on what kind of effort you are looking for.

I actually found a B-body Cop box first. Since I wanted to try more effort, and it would work on my friends A-body, I bought a Iroc box off of eBay and sold him the cop box for the same price. In reality my box cost even less than $60 (unless of course you count my time). The cop box was pretty cheap because instead of it being off a "Camaro" it was of an "old Caprice" (did I forget to mention it was a BC1?) The second yard was more into shredding then worrying about selling parts, so the 14:1 box was pretty cheap too.

I also picked up a 3rd gen wing with brakelight which mocked up pretty good fit-wise. But I'm saving that project for repaint time.

I think you're right Mike. If you go to the first link of the references I posted, there is a link to F body gear boxes: http://jimshea.corvettefaq.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/01/1967-93CamaroStrgGearBoxesRev04OC04.xls

It shows the travel (i.e., stops) being the same for the first gen and the 3rd gen performance (i.e., Z28) boxes. The T bar diameter determines the effort. It has to twist (torsionally) to open a valve or maybe it's the other way around, the more it twists, the less a valve is opened. The articles at this link are all rearranged from the last time I studied them so I couldn't find the part on t-bars.

John, that's what I remember about the T bar diameter. It's hooked to the spool valve and when you turn the wheel, if there is low resistance, the bar doesn't twist and doesn't open the valve, so no power assist. As the T bar twists more the valve opens more and you get more assist. The bigger the diameter of the T bar, the more effort you supply.

Now can someone tell me how to check the "WS6" box that I bought many years ago to make sure it is the right one?

I could check the one in my TA tomorrow for distinguishing markings if that would help?

Thanks, Jim, yes, that would!

One trick i use where it doesnt matter if its close or not is turn the wheel step on the gas hard and let the tires SPIN! this should lower it for ya! haha

ive seen the original ratiosvarying from 3 3/4 ro 2 5/8 turns (roughly).

Have a 79TA WS6 gear i was going to install, but plan'n to make some 120 mph runs at the track next summer.
Think'n a wide ratio box would be better in case it gets alittle sideways. Not as likely to over compensate.

Maybe just remove the belt before racing.
What do you guys think?