Hi all,
Was drinking a beer with a friend the other day and he mention a buddy with whom he works with has a car. The information was kinda sketchy but here is what he told me. A 68 Firebird convertible with a 400 4 speed ram air hood scoop posi rear all there but really rusty. After i showed him my project he said it was better than mine. No VIN #'s yet but i hope to see the car this weekend. Could this be one of those rare 400 RAIII i hear about? What would be the biggest give away if it is?
Daren
"Information without application, is nothing more than trivia"

A lot of non-Firebird people mistake 400 scoops for "Ram Air". Ram Air is a whole package of factory parts. Only way to be sure is PHS.

Complete, original, numbers matching Ram Air cars in excellent condition are bringing in very impressive figures. Project cars are worth not nearly that much, and the value depends on completeness and restorability.

Most non-Pontiac enthusist call the 400 hood, "ram air". I guess people see the nostrals and assume they must work etc. Nonetheless it may in fact be a restorable conv., 400/4 speed car. That would be a nice find if it's all there...

OK,
What would be the biggest give away with a visual look that it is a true 400 RA?

Steel ram air pans. Or signs that the hood had a ram air pan fastened to it at one time. Not conclusive at all but enough to get excited about. Also, the code on the front of the engine block is usually the first thing I find that makes it less than a complete ram air car.

Alright,
Theres the first clue. I will get all VIN #'s and body codes i can. also engine #'s and tranny #'s if it isnt buried in crud. I really hope it is what i think it is.

You have a better chance of winning Lotto then it being a true Ram air convertible..

Either way, let us know. It's always interesting. Especially when the car has been sitting stashed away for so long. A guy I worked with had the one and only real Royal Bobcat 67 Firebird. Jay Leno has been telling stories about finding rarer cars. They are out there. This guy I know in New York found a Yenko 69 Camaro that hadn't been out of the garage since 70. After the owner died, nobody in the family knew how to use a clutch good enough to drive it up the steep driveway.

Yes they are out there But the odds are a zillion to one.

some people even call the 400 hood with scoops TA hood..they are probably the same that also says it has a 400 big block in it...

Or they see the 400 hood and call it a first gen formula, seen that on Ebay a few times now.

BHawkmeck...can't you get over there any sooner...we're anxious here!!
GoodLuck,
Jordan

For Sale on ebay for a limited time:

1966 Firebird Formula 454 Ram Air VII 4 speed convertible Trans Am.
All original, frame off restoration. Has the rare glove box casette player option and original neon-purple roll bar. I am selling this for a friend, so don't ask me any questions about it, but he really knows his firebirds so we can trust him. No scammers, please.

and don't forget the 12 bolt pois option

Here's a good one.

THIS IS A RAM AIR CAR CHECK THE VIN #

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/69-F...hZ020QQcategoryZ6420QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Bjorn, you ruined my day, my new hoods not a T/A. Just kidding, picked up a 400 hood on Sunday. Going to the body shop tomorrow to get it painted. I could put it on now but it's painted black and it probably would make the car look like a bumble bee.

Merry Xmas Ron H.

That is my favorite, i went to a machine shop in high school to get a price on doing my 400 block in my Grand Prix and his reply was big block or small block when i replied back neither he looked at me as if i had 3 heads.needless to say i found a different shop.

Jeremy Wyborney
http://firstgenfirebird.org/show/closeup.mv?CarID=790

if you look at the title to that ebay auction, hes done something wise. he covered his address so nobody jacks his car while hes asleep!!

andy

Well still plan on going to the place on Sunday. As soon as i get the info i will pass it on. If this is the real deal but it rough what do you think i otta offer? I have about a 3,000 dollar budget to work with and a mad wife for bringing home anouther project.

The price range is variable. I can say, "Don't walk away without the car if it has a ram air code block in it." Get that two letter code off the front and check it.

If it has a RA block code you'll likely need another investor.

That would mean that they knew already and then I would smell a rat.

$3K doesn't go far anymore. Once in a while something will surface where the seller has been out of touch with cars for many years and has the same value in mind as what they'd have wanted 10 years ago, but more often I've been finding what I would consider parts cars (due to rust or wreck issues) with asking prices of up to $6K, and this is not for cars with any special/rare features! Sorry, but that's just not realistic. Someone with less experience may still buy it, but it's going to be a nightmare rather than a fun and memorable restoration, and fixing the problems can eat up the whole restoration budget or compromise the final job if they are not properly fixed.

If you get the car for its scrap value, that's a different story. It's hard to go wrong, even if you find the body isn't salvageable.

If you can't part out the car for more than the asking price, then the asking price is too high. Just my opinion.

If it's an original 400 car, it should have all the badging on the deck lid, hood and bumper.

Excellent point. You see so many cars that need a complete restore that are still 'almost' presentable. These are 'traps' in my opinion. You have to pay big bucks and then have to invest big bucks. You never catch up in value. I've seen cars go for 15K on eBay that, in my opinion, are project cars. Project cars that when finished will bring 25K tops. The sticking point is they need 25K in parts and labor! Another 'trap' is a rare car that's missing the rare parts. Lets say you find a real ram air car minus the original drive train. You go through all the trouble restoring it and finding 'like original' rare parts and it's not worth anywhere near what a completely original car is worth. Here's the major sticking point with that type of car: Everybody will agree that it's a cool car and rare but when you go to sell it the rare car collectors frown on it. They won't cut it down but they won't be throwing money at it either. I was talking with a major ram air car collector the other day and he said that he will not touch a car that doesn't have the original engine. He said it's just not worth it.

I haven't seen these two cars in person so I don't know for sure but I think they are very possibly 'traps'.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/68-P...hZ003QQcategoryZ6420QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1968...hZ006QQcategoryZ6420QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

What really sets me off is to see an ad list NOM engine then proceed to give a totally incorrect engine code or displacement. C'mon, a numbers matching 428 or 455 first gen? What's next, a factory numbers matching 327 Chevy 'bird?

I would rather buy an honest, tired, original car with issues than one that has been "restored". If it doesn't have the original drivetrain that will limit its investment potential, but it does not mean that the car cannot be every bit as good for its intended purpose. And that is exactly what I am buying, selling, and restoring.

Ah. To some people NOM means Not Original Motor. Really! Not kidding!

LOL, not surprising.

A couple of months ago I went to look at an eBay listed '68 coupe. It looked presentable in the photos and had a fresh rebuilt numbers matching engine. Quarters and rockers were solid filler with a fresh paint job. Window gutters were so bad the rear window was siliconed in with no trim. He sold it on eBay for over $8K. I'm sure the buyer was in for a surprise when they actually looked at it.

Oh yeah. There are plenty of 'slinkies' out there. Bought one myself a while back. Nice looking red 68 4 speed vert. Broke in half on the way home. Couldn't even open the doors. What the heck do you do with a car like that? I passed it on for what I paid(5K) to a friend with big ideas. He sold it to someone else with big ideas too. He made a couple grand on it. It's floating around somewhere. An overpriced basket of do-do. Or dough-do. LOL

I've been looking at various cars with a friend who would like to buy a nice clean "cruiser". The one thing we have noticed is just how wonderful some digital cameras can make a car look. The pics they send you or list look GREAT, then you get there and you can not beleive it could possibly be the same car. We actually asked a guy what kind of camera he was using, because obviously it had a "magic" filter.

After getting deep into my frame off I have to agree with the editorial in the new HPP mag.
Only the VIN tag holds value. Other than a few rare parts every other piece can and probably will be replaced on a resto.
So what do you really have? It's not a restored original unless you used the original parts. That is near impossible on I'd say 95% of the restorable 40 year old cars.

Door panels will probably have water damage on the back side and are usally dry rotted to the point of not being able to re-use the cover.
Seats are the same way. Headliner? Forget re-using that.
Re-chrome bumpers vs repo? Cost is significant, most use repo now.
I just used those as an example. The list could go on.

Unless I'm going for a concourse rare car I'd rather start with a clean straight lesser car and build what I want.
You'll rarely make your investment back on a rare resto, the price is to high for the car unless it's a barn find, which is about like winning the lottery these days. Everyone thinks their car is a gold mine, yes restored it probably is valuable, but getting it there will cost you more than the selling price.
The only people making real money are the ones selling the ones needing restoring. Unless you're Foose or some other high end shop.

Awhile back a guy on Hotrodders said he went to look at a 1970 GTX he heard about, said it was at best a $5000 car, needed everything replaced but most everything was there.
The owner said he'd take 25, he wrote him a check for $2500, the guy said no, $25,000
Said he'd seen one on Barrett Jackson sell for $50,000 so his was worth at least half that.
The buyer said it would take at least $25-30 grand to restore it so he told the guy good luck and walked away.
Last I heard a year later the car is still sitting there, rotting away.

Barrett Jackson has been the best and worse thing to happen to cars in the last decade.

Rules to safer buying (especially when dealing with a stranger):

Never buy a car in primer.
Never buy a car with fresh paint, especially red.
Never buy a car without seeing it in good daylight.
Never buy a car that sags with the doors open.
Never buy a car that is rusted out in the door hinge pillars and windshield frame.
Never buy a car with water stains in the instrument cluster.
Never buy a car from someone selling it for a friend.
Never buy a car where the seller's name and current address is not on the title.
Never leave a deposit without a receipt detailing VIN and car description.
Never pay in full without a bill of sale and title and car in hand.
If you're an optimist, take along a friend who is a pessimist.

There are exceptions to every rule, but these will help keep casual buyers out of trouble.

I will agree with you on that last comment HO. Besides the 68 vert im redoing I also have a 70 Chevelle Vert sitting in the barn waitng its time in the garage. What i think is so wrong as i know with the car just sitting there for the $1000 bucks i bought it for its already worth(in my mind) at leae $5000. I'm Guess that i will put in at lease $4K in sheetmetal alone.
Heck who knows this might be a real RA car, might not be. Still have to look (im due to hit the lottery). If its not what it is suppose to be I'll go from there. Might be a great parts car and i will share the wealth with everyone on here.(sick of dealing with selling on Ebay). Also cudo's to everyone on this site that help keep all these cars going and enjoyable.

Daren
"Information without application is nothing more than trivia"

I disagree with some of the points in the HPP editorial. The car without engine has limited value, dependent upon condition, style and options. The engine without matching car has limited value, dependent on condition and desirability. There are some cars that the value of the parts is greater than the total of the individual items, and the contributing factors are rarity and desirability. V-8 convertibles, Trans Ams and Ram Airs have that extra "value". IMO, if you can find one needing restoration, they are generally worth restoring.

Although the cost to restore a 350 2bbl 2 speed Firebird and a 400 4 bbl 4 speed Firebird will be similar if the cars were in similar condition, the 400 car will be more marketable and command a higher price. Neither might sell for what restoration cost. So build what you like and enjoy it.

Reproduction parts are good and bad. A lot of cars were scrapped before repro parts were available, when originals were hard to find. Now every car is technically rebuildable, but at what cost? Reproduction of rare parts somewhat dilutes the value of the original rare parts but allows for restoration of rare cars. Reproduction of common parts keeps cars alive.

I also had a few issues with the editorial but overall I liked what he said.

I just got back from picking up most of my lower half parts, dropped close to 2 grand just to get it rolling, brakes, tank, lines, suspension and a few odd parts.
Still have the interior to go, engine and cooling etc...

These are all Delco or repo parts from the typical mfg in all the catalogs.
Now I could have re-used my tank, dented and 40 years old, same for the brake and fuel lines.
But the cost is the same for these parts regardless of what it's going on and I wanted as much new as I can afford.

The VIN tag will make these parts either worth 2 or 4 grand once it's re-assembled. Assuming a similar restoration is done.

Alrighty,
When i go and look at the block, what area am i looking at for codes?<remember im a chevy guy> and what codes should i get excieted about?

You see where that YX is? For 68 ram air it would say either WI or XN for ram air I and WU or XT for ram air II. HO would be WQ or YW. A regular 400 car would have YT or WZ.

If you don't get a 'BINGO' with those and you are still curious about what's in there, here's all the codes:

http://www.bassettracing.cz28.com/custom3.html

Sorry Jim,
The computer here at work wont let me see the pics.

At least you have the letters. They are located on the front, passenger side of the block, just below the head.

Thanks Jim,
Im Taking Vikki's advice and bringing my pessimist friend on this little adventure. If anyone knows what a POS is he does. Kinda going off on a tangent he found a 61 Studebaker Lark convert in a barn a few years ago. After the drive home on the trailer and the dust came off it is a one of 3 made from the factory with a rumble seat. One of the cars killed the mayor of Gary Indiana in a roll over and the other is unknown. He bought it for $50. Talk about hitting the lottery.