Hello, I am new here. This looks like the place to be for first generation Firebird fans. For starters I don’t own a Firebird yet. I have been eyeing my neighbors ‘69 convertible for the past year. I just finished another project and needed a new one. Just my luck! The guy wants to sell the car but he says he needs a couple of more weeks before he is ready. The car needs a lot of work but looks like it has potential. It’s a four speed and has a rebuilt 455 (73-74) ish. I think the motor is basically a stock 455. I’m fine with it not being the original 350, but I wanted A/C. Maybe a good after market AC would be better anyway and it won’t take up all the room in the engine compartment? The car has some rust but not too bad. The interior is a 4 out of 10 and the top need replaced. *what do you guys think is a good value $$ for a ’69 conv with 4 speed and 455? *what are the major concerns about a ’69 needing restoration? *what are the spots I need to pay special attention to when I get a chance to crawl over the car before buying? Any advice is appreciated. Thanks, Tom
Welcome! The very most important is the structure. You need a strong body. A weak 1st gen Firebird convertible is worthless if you plan on driving it. Check for added structure under the car. This usually means that someone had concerns that the car was flexing. You don't want a 'slinky' with a 455 4 speed.
Structure as in subframe connectors to tie the subframe to the rear frame rails and at a minimum the "X" brace that the factory bolted across the floor pans under the driveshaft.
Rust will be a big concern. Check floor and trunk pans; the bottoms of the front fenders and rear quarterpanels, rocker panels, under vinyl tops, paint bubbles, noticeable patches. It might be worth your while to invest in a paint check magnet.
Numbers are good to check too. If it's a neighbor and the car's not on the open market - getting info from the Pontiac Historical Society is a good investment.
A good aftermarket A/C system company is Vintage Air. Replaces the entire stock HVAC system with one that fits under the dash (including A/C)
2012 Mustang Boss 302 #1918, Competition Orange. FGF replacement 2006 Mustang V6 Pony, Vista Blue. Factory ordered. 2019 BMW X3 (Titled to the wife, but I'm always driving it for her. So I'm claiming it) Old projects, gone but not forgotten: 1967 FB 400, original CA car. After 22 years of work, trashed by the guy who was supposed to paint it. I had to sell it. 1980 Turbo Trans Am 1970 Mustang fastback, 351C 4Bbl, auto 1988 Mustang GT, 5 speed 1983 F-150 4x4, built 302 1994 Chevy K2500 HD 4x4, 454 TBI
I looked at a vert the other day that had steel fence posts welded in for extra strength. If there is any foreign(non factory) stuff welded in then stay clear. Hopefully, the owner had some common sense with the 455 and didn't already twist the body. All it takes is a little common sense with a big engine and you will be fine.
Thanks! That was fast! What are the heat issues? Is the stock radiator too small? Why would a stock 455 run hotter than a 350 or 400?. Is there a best year for 455? It's not a SD. I will run numbers when I do the check out, but the guy said it came from a 73 or 74 Can Am, Grand Am, or Grand Prix. I can't remember. I know it was not from a Firebird. The car is not a rust pig and welding is not a problem for me. Judging from the door and fender gaps there is no signs of twisting. However there is some twenty + year old traction bars underneath, so it was kid owned at some point in it's life. He guy says it the brakes, engine, trans and front end have all been gone through and he is looking for 8K plus for the car. Is this reasonalble. PS: he says the engine was professionally rebuilt to stock specs.
heat issues "could" be that it was never equipped with the X fillers that 400 cars got (metal fillers between bumper and radiator, on 400 and A/C cars)also, might be missing lower air baffle, rubber(masticated)fillers at bottom and ea side of radiator...radiator could be from a 326 or 6 cyl car (but if owner has used it and it runs fine, its prob. not an issue)... also ,headers (if on it)can cause hot start problems if no heat shield is on it...also if headers are present you "could" have no back up light and neutral start issues (if missing shift linkeage, that many remove(d)(s) to clear (some) headers....
thats a few...if you DO have heat issues, lets hope not, it could be flow thru radiator, thermostat, fan, radiator size etc, many options, lets just first determine IF the car has any...
price seems fine...I paid $8k for a non matching numbers car (convert.)that needed work 7 yrs ago
As stated a sound structure is the key factor. Look for rust in the rear frame rails and shock towers. The rockers are another critical area to pay attention to. Also the metal around where the sub-frame attaches.
All the skin and structural metal are repoed for FG ‘birds and Camaros now. So even if there is rust thru it’s not a problem that can’t be corrected.
The simplest answer to the heat issue is bigger CI = more calories burned = more heat. There are solutions as you'll find out. It's a 'hot' topic around here (pun intended).
If you do wind up getting this car you’ll make Tom #3 with a ’69 convertible that I know of. Welcome aboard!
Cowl/windshield frame (does the windshield frame flex?) Floor pan at rear spring front pockets (not much holding rear springs to car) Body mount area of subframe and corresponding floor pan pads Mount points for gas tank, both front and rear Rear frame rails Inner rockers and pinch welds
Sounds like a fair price.
Vikki 1969 Goldenrod Yellow / black 400 convertible numbers matching
The good thing about the car is that the paint job must be 15+ years so it's not hiding anything. New paint always scares me. I want to buy the car but I'm afraid my eagerness may be showing and I hope the guy doesn't jack the price. After a close look I'll post my first grocery list of needs to put things in perspective. Thanks, Tom PS: Is there a FB club in Northern VA?
Buy it before he looks around and sees he is underpriced.....
Now you're just making me nervious!
PS: Yellowbird, is there a common problem with the windshield frame flexing? Where is the weak point so I know what to look for.
Welcome. Not answering for yellowbird, but can say the frt pillars on a coupe will flex enough to crack the w/shield with about 450 hp and no frame connecters. Even crack the the upr pillars themselves with good traction. Without the X-brace, a convertible would be worse.
As the Firebird is a unibody car, there is no insignificant rust if it goes through a panel or significantly weakens it. Convertibles are even more subject to structural failure, as the factory added very little bracing to make up for the removal of the roof structure.
Windshield frames are subject to rust along the header and in the glass channels. Without early attention, this rust grows down the pillars. Sometimes it is visible at the edge of the steel upper dash at the base of the windshield as a bit of blistering, sometimes visible with the cowl grille off, sometimes it's visible as rust up under the dash, or in the top of the door jambs. I've seen them rust bad enough that you could very literally fold the windshield frame down onto the dash with as little as 50 pounds of force, yet still look fine. Observe very carefully when latching the top, preferably with your hand on the windshield frame. If a power top, unlatch and release it, and retract the top. Try to flex it as if pulling yourself up from the windshield header. Moderate force only...then if power top, cycle the top back up with one hand on the windshield side channel. When the top reaches the windshield you should feel it, but the windshield frame should not move. When latching the top, the frame should not flex.
X brace under the belly is critical. My 'bird has had subframe connectors on it for 25 years, and although not factory I am glad they are there as they have provided additional stiffening, making for better ride and handling and less damage to the car.
Vikki 1969 Goldenrod Yellow / black 400 convertible numbers matching
my car ,being sold in Wisconsin ,but been in Texas for at least 14 yrs...no windshield movement (sometimes I wish there was,its sooo hard to latch!) , didnt have the X brace when I bought it (removed to "help" install non correct exhaust), I bought from Ames , think it was $80, easy install...4 bolts...
I dont have subframe connectors, car seems fine w/o them (and I dont drive it like grandma!), even though most my friends have them and swear by them...
X-Brace is a must if you value your life...if the drive shaft ever let loose at the trans output. I don't have any subframe connectors and it's never been a problem for my lowly 360HP block. Is the paint acrylic Lacquer? I have a 20 plus year old paint job, and the paint is very fragile, and does not flex at all. If it chips, it goes down to primer.
There's nothing like cruising the open road with the top down...enjoy.
While the discussion is on vert bracing, with the X Brace, are there weld nuts on the car or is it a through bolt application? Mine did not have one when I bought it and there are just 4 holes on the car.
68' Firebird 400 convertible, numbers matching, solar red w/ deluxe parchment interior. 66' Pontiac Ventura Hardtop 66' Pontiac Catalina Convertible
In our neighborhood, the car is at a give away price, and it would have to have serious structural rust to be overpriced. Have you done any homework on the actual selling price of restored fgf verts? The real selling price for top-notch cars is in the low to mid 20's--more if a seller is willing to make'em sweat.
If I were in the market for the car, had the money/storage for the car, and the car was in a condition above a basket-case, you wouldn't have to worry about debating the purchase because there wouldn't be anything to discuss other than whether or not the oil spot on the pavment came from the bird or another car.
As far as the 455 in the car: Just like Jim said, unless the person is a real sfb, you shouldn't have any problem with the 455 and tearing up the car.
David, I loved watching your slide-show. Please include more pictures. It looks like you did a first rate job. I'm really fired up now but I'm still waiting to finalize a deal for the car. Looking at your pictures just made waiting tougher!!
That's a low price for a 69 Convert, especially here in the DC area where rust or the car crusher took all the birds off the streets. I watched someone haul off a 69 coupe project at Carlisle, Pa last week for $9,000 and it needed a fair amount of work. Firebirds are getting more respect and collector interest these days. While the 455 in a vert can twist the body, at that price if it's tweaked a little, it would be worth having a frame shop fix it. If this is a solid car, I wouldn't pass it up.
The very most important is the structure. You need a strong body. A weak 1st gen Firebird convertible is worthless if you plan on driving it. Check for added structure under the car. This usually means that someone had concerns that the car was flexing. You don't want a 'slinky' with a 455 4 speed.
