Hey all, my car is still in the shop getting work done, it is taking awhile, but I knew the guy doing the work was going to do it when he had time between other things that were coming in everyday etc..
But it is still taking awhile I dropped it off on 4/16/07 so almost 2 months now.

Here are the things I am getting done, and as some of you might know I am not very mechanically inclined, so this is my best description of the work being done, Ill get a better list when work is finished and I get the whole bill I guess.

1. Install disc brakes on front
2. Remove engine, paint (including intake and exhaust manifolds, reseal, new oil pump, rebuild crank shaft
3. Replace shift cable (automatic)
4. Install front and rear sway bars (big bars), reroute back exhaust around sway bars.
5. All new gas shocks (got rid of air shocks in back)
6. Add leaf on back leaf springs and rearch.
7. Reinstall AC, and condenser, but not hook up and get working (I had removed it long ago)
8. New E'brock alluminum value covers.
9. New quick ratio steering box.


This is going to cost me allot, and I was wondering if I could get a ballpark figure from people on this forum, so that I know I am not getting screwed.
I would post what I think the finished job will cost, but I am emabarrased it will be way high and you guys will laugh out load!
But then again I just always have that feeling of getting overcharged no matter what.
There is allot of labor here, and since unlike you guys, I dont do my work myself it is going to be expensive.

Anyone care to take a guess?

jsdeprey,

Other than the AC tasks you have on your list, I too needed to do all of those tasks since I got my bird. And each task has been challenging and rewarding. Some tasks and projects took a day or two, others took months.

I know and feel your resistance to taking on big car jobs on the bird, but I want to push you in another direction:

YOU, yes you, can do these tasks and projects!!!

- Do one thing at a time if possible
- Order the parts for one job at a time
- Tell us all what you are attempting to do so we can assist
- Realize some things take time, and some things are easy

Nobody here will steer you wrong (no pun intended). We can all help you through those tasks you listed. I can't help with AC but plenty of folks here can.

If the bird is in your home and under your control, then we can help. Once you pass the car over to someone else then we can only hope for the best. I've never handed my bird over to anyone or any business. They come to my house and do the work, or I do it myself.

Thanks allot for the response, you are probally right about me being able to do some of this, but I get very nervous about it, and things like changing to disk brakes and things seem like pretty big projects for me.
I really am not very good at doing much mechanical work, I always rush myself and don't have the patience it takes to do allot of these things.
I would really need more room in my garage and allot more tools, but for the price I pay do have someone else do these things the tools would be cheap.
Thing is when I do something, most of the time I don't feel good about it, I feel like I could have done better, or someone else could have done better.
And some things I really just know absolutely nothing about, they learning curve is really pretty big here.
So on these projects I took it too a guy that some people I know said did really good work, and thats fine, but I really just don't know about how much things should cost, its very hard to tell if someone is just ripping me off cause they can tell I dont know what it should cost?
I belive the things a mentioned above are going to cost me somewhere between 5,000 and 6,000 dollars, I know that for that kind of money you guys could almost restore a whole car, but not doing the work myself, I do realize I have to pay someone else money to work on it.
But would you say that is way to much? a little high or about right?
BTW I really do enjoy this forum and learn much just from reading on here, maybe someday ill try to do some of these things, but start with something smaller. and maybe get someone to help me some, but do it in my garage or something.

I'll take a wild arse guess, $60 to $90 per hour labor with the following guess on hours. You can look up parts costs in various catalogs and apply shop mark up of 50 percent. Don't overlook consumables like brake fluid, antifreeze, oil, etc.


Install disc brakes on front

8 hours (if lines are not rotted)

Remove engine, paint (including intake and exhaust manifolds, reseal, new oil pump, rebuild crank shaft

16 hours plus machine shop on crank
3 hours paint labor

Replace shift cable (automatic

1 hour

Install front and rear sway bars (big bars), reroute back exhaust around sway bars.

2 hours for rear kit
I don't know how hard the front will be with the car assembled.

All new gas shocks (got rid of air shocks in back)

2 hours


Add leaf on back leaf springs and rearch.

4 hours. Install new ones from Eaton Springs instead of rebuild!

Reinstall AC, and condenser, but not hook up and get working (I had removed it long ago)

6 hours

New E'brock alluminum value covers.

1 hour, less is done during engine repair

New quick ratio steering box.

4 hours


I recommend you break the restoration down into identifiable tasks with schedule, estimate and progress payments. Have this work done on a time and materials basis. If a shop gives a low price and ends up in a money losing situation, the project gets parked on the back lot and never worked on. You want the shop making daily or at least weekly progress. This is more likely to happen when the shop gets weekly progress payments. You need tasks defined with identifiable tasks, with milestones representing completion of significant chunks of work so the project can be taken elsewhere should they fail to perform. There's a popular term called "body shop jail" folks use to talk about project cars that sit neglected in shops because the shop can't perform promised work for the quoted price. A price that has no profit for the mechanic is a job that is going to suffer.

That sounds reasonable to me for that much labor and all the parts needed.

I worry that your car has sat two months though. Was other work completed, or is it just sitting?

Its the law of economics! If it would take you 20 hours of labor to put in the disc brakes, but in those 20 hours you can make more money than it costs to pay for someone else to do the work for you, then it makes more sense to work at what you do best and let someone else do the it.

You probably could have done the shocks, shift cable and sway bars yourself.

I'm pretty close to you on the mechanics level. Used to do it 20 years ago, but now I find making the time(when wife goes out) difficult.

I do find looking on the internet very helpful. Usually someone will post a pictured step by step way to do the repair.

Bottomline, the work is being done and the car will be ready for you to enjoy!

If you are not confident then there is nothing wrong with paying someone else to get the job done, especially brakes
One way to build confidence is to take on some of the smaller tasks that even if you screw it up, it is an easy fix. Some of the things you can do are change oil, plugs filters,belts and get used to wrenching and then go from there. I am currently digging my own inground pool and i wondered what the heck i got myself into.Once i calmed down and cleared my clouded vision (and extreme uncertainty) i am positive i can do the job.
You can do work on your car.Tackle jobs on a lower difficulty scale and arm yourself with information on said task ( ie: ask FGF'ers) and take your time.If you get stuck or unsure post here in the tech help and never be afraid to ask questions.We are all here to support one another.Best of luck and hope you get her back soon!

David

Thanks all of the responses, in response to 68Bigbird, yes things are moving along on the work, and it is close to finished, I stop buy regularly and check on the work done.
I do think it would have been better to have me bring it in and do it one part at a time.
But right now I think it will be done in another week I am hoping.
I was just hoping that the money did not sound like it was ripping me off, 6,000 dollars is allot of money to me, but might be about right.
Either way I will be happy when I get it back it is looking good.

Thanks agian for all the info.

Jsdprey,

I don't think the prices you have been charged are out of line and this sort of work is very hard to contract out. It's a lot of work, some of it not fun work compared with swap out this or that and collect a check. If the work is satisfactory, you are very on course. Lots of guys, including myself won't pay this much (can't or won't afford it) and it causes the project to sit unattended or incomplete while we worry about costs. It is worthwhile to get your car finished sooner so you can enjoy it, especially if you don't have an interest in the mechanical aspects of things. There is no shame there. Many have no desire to dive into this sort of uncharted territory.

Though many here would chose and recommend that you buy tools and DIY, including myself, but no one here has full appreciation of the trade off between your hour income vs the learning curve for this sort of repair. I've never been good at this trade-off, even when my hours were valued higher in my expertice than spent in other trades that I could muddle into. I think [censored] near every DIY repair I have tackled, I've done over with many jobs given a second try in the learning process.

I have no doubt, given determination and tools, that you could do all this work yourself. I think [censored] near everyone on this site can do this work, given the determination, but the question comes back to optimum use of ones time and patience. That makes it a matter of optimum expenditure of one's time. If one is a computer scientist, wrenching on a water pump is probably not an optimum use of one's time, no matter their mechanical expertice. Another hour of code writing will pay for lots of mechanic time. On the other hand, if one pumps gas or works at walmart, some time spent fixing stuff twice or even three tries.. costs very little in opportunity. So it comes down to opportunity costs. Only you can chose that.

Still, I think you should put some of these jobs on your own list, such as the shocks. That gives one real world experience that is worth while. I remember shreaking after two hours of working a shock absorber nut spinning free, that I could have a high school drop-out swap out these frigging shocks cheaper while an engineer wasted all day on the job. Learning how other trades work smart, not hard is well worthwhile.

You may be well ahead of the curve on this as the heavy lifting is done. Plucking out the engine and fixing oiling and bearing problems is time consuming and not high profit work. If you have this complete, you are way ahead. Don't snip your list short while the engine is out to save a few bucks. For instance, put the BOP rear main seal in, so that never bites you again.

Please post photos of your car when it's done. That's the stuff we all love to look at! It will be great to read about you rolling down the road to car shows in your classic bird. Let us know how you do with your project. No one cares at the shows if you crancked the wrench. They want to check out the great muscle cars we all grew up with.

Thanks for the post, 68bigbird.
Yea I dont make tons of money or anything, wish I did, but I make ok money working for a telephone company doing Internet backbone IP routing work, I got in to it early and have constantly moved up to a IP Engineering type job.
My company just got bought out by Windstream (big company more or less) http://www.windstream.com/
So wish me luck on not getting let go during this merger, cause you never can tell about this [censored], I should be safe for awhile, I hope
So you never know, I might have to sell the bird if things got tough all a suden, but untill them I dont mind putting money in to something that I can get some part of my money back out of, many thing lose value much faster, even though my car has cost me more money that I would have imagined, and I tend to buy things over my real budget.
But I dont have kids and am 36 so I saved some money there I guess
Many times I have came to the conclusion that these cars are for people that can do the work and have the time and engery, patience to work on them themselves unless money is just not a issue, but I really have fun with the car and would miss it to much to sell it, so I get some things done on it when I can afford it.
No matter what, I start out wanting to do 1 or 2 things then the list gets bigger and the bills grow allot, and I always end up wondering if I am paying way to much.

To start doing some of the small jobs, I would need tools, thats fine I dont mind spending money there if I can do the work.
And I would have to get my garage cleaned out, I gots lots of crap in there, including my jetski that is big.
Start on something small, I do have a tendency to get impatient and break stuff or do something I regret later cause I rushed it though.

People on this site are definitly a big resource, it always suprises me how helpful they are.

The guys doing my work on my car are funny and when I mention getting on the internet to find some of these parts and peices that are not right on my car, they just laugh. its a shame cause they are missing out on so much as far as the help and parts they can find online.

But they good old boys and thats ok, Ill am going to try to help a little.

Well, I think most guys here would set the jetski out back to make room to work on their bird. You have a beautiful car; I checked it out on your links. You won't be sorry to bring her up to snuff and storm through town with that car. Your car will certainly turn some heads and you won't regret spending money on restoration. When you get bored, drop her off here; I'll make a good home for a red '69.

I do think you could and should take on some of the mechanicals of the car. Nash suggested that, but he may have put some complicated tasks on your list. Pulling out the engine is a bit much as a new project, but some things on your list are easily paid for with your time and even buying some new tools. Remember that tools last a lifetime and experience is knowledge that enhances life experiences. Patience grows with experience and if this is not a daily driver, you can park the project when your patience wears thin. Just walk away, sip a beer when you get annoyed and come back later. On an old car, you need to know your way around the mechanicals anyway, because the reliability is lesser than a modern car due to the age. These older cars are comparatively simpler. You can and maybe should take on the easier mechanicals and work your way through as your experience builds your confidence. If you can navigate around IP, internet backbone and such, spinning wrenches on rusty bolts won't be a technical limitation for you. The steps of sorting through technical issues are very much the same and the physical issues of pulling on a wrench won't pose problems for you at your young years. Memory leak or oil leak... pretty much the same thought processes. What caused it and what's the remedy? The harder stuff can be explained by folks here.

I started out in '68 changing the points in my bird. That was my first experience that side of the hood. I ended up tweaking them again at the roadside on my way to school because it ran like crap. Don't be afraid to take on stuff outside your experience. You can always do it over. It starts off with minor projects like points, condensor, thermostats or shocks and soon you learn the whole car as you go through it.

A big awakening for me was when in 1969 I asked the Pontiac dealer to replace a worn rubber brake pedal cover. I was astonished to be charged a half hour for that three minute repair. I was 17 at the time, lol. I guess I figured that would be free as a three minute fix. The shop was justified in the charges though. Someone had to go request the part from the window. Someone had to order it in. He had to install it. Someone else had to put it on the invoice. A half hour was reasonable, but it was not money well spent. Everything has cost and profit in it, even for a three minute task.

All of this stuff, I've done once and many times done over again after the first attempt failed. I still have some things to do over again, but I learn as a go through the car. Doing things twice is still cheaper than paying to have it done. The good thing about doing some things yourself is you know whose as$ to kick when it's not right. That makes the going easier. I know I've wasted valuable time over jobs I paid for that were done incorrectly by others and the effort to set it straight many times is more than DIY from the start. Setting blame is always 1/2 the problem; you know from your life experiences at work that until you set blame, nothing gets fixed! Once blame is set, problems can be solved.

You have lots of smart guys to get help from here, and most of this is turning nuts and bolts. Okay, many of them are rusty bolts, but still it's workable. Put the shocks on your own list of repairs and fund the repair with a set of sockets and a wrench handle from Harbor Freight. You will be amazed how much work you can do with a cheap set of six point impact socket from HF and a wrench handle. That $10 set of sockets is nearly my favorite kit, over the craftsman or other sets, because it won't round off bolts and I can beat on them.

You'll be amazed what you can do when you get going. It's so worthwhile too..... The Pontiac dealer cross-threaded a rear shock on my bird back in 1969. They declined responsibilty when I couldn't change the tire using the bumper jack.... and I didn't know they did the job wrong until I couldn't lift the tire off the ground with the jack. It went back to setting blame. Once the dealer declined blame for a lousy repair, it still needed to be fixed. I bought a tap and rethreaded that shock and fixed it myself. There's just a nut at the top of the shock and another nut at the bottom, then it pops out. Give it a try on your car as a good first project. Changing your own shock also gives you the choice of selecting a superior shock vs a generic part.

Some of what I'm thinking is that repairs are $60-$90 per hour. That is sort of a reasonable price these days and weather the repair is complicated or simple, an hour labor is still an hour. When it's work you can't do yourself it's money well spent. Like pulling the engine... not a good first job for DIY, unless you're determined and patient like Nash or myself. When it's changing a shock, you pay yourself well to DIY. The shop can't charge less because the job of chaning a shock is less complicated than pulling the engine out, because it's the same talented mechanic doing the repair, weather it's a shock or an engine repair.

The steering gear job you listed is probably $450 worth of labor, excluding the parts. It's not a hard job, other than popping the pitman arm loose. Three bolts hold the gear to the frame. Two bolts tie the steering shaft to the input shaft. One nut holds the pitman arm on the output shaft. Two lines connect the hydraulic lines for power steering. At worst, you would spend an entire day. If you did this a few times it's two hours work or less on a bird. You can do that yourself with $100 or less worth of Harbor Freight tools and an afternoon. You'll finish with confidence that all the bolts are tight too. Okay, it's a [censored] to pull the pitman arm loose sometimes, but we'll all help you here or at least offer our sympathy. You will come back telling how it was a [censored] and then it fell loose. And I never heard of one that couldn't eventually come off with a large hammer.

You have a couple of items on your list you could take on yourself. They would be learning experiences that give you great confidence in owning and driving this car. Tools will be cheap and last a lifetime.

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with dropping the car off and having it done for you. In that instance, I think the prices you've been told are fair and reasonable for this much work. The mechanics and shops have a fair profit just as you have in your profession. I don't think you're being taken advantage of with what you are quoted. It comes down to the best use of your time and chance to advance your understanding of mechanicals of the car.

Funny, your list of projects is real close to mine...but rather than a jetski I've been dealing with around 30 photocopiers that I've hade to strip down to the frames(to recycle) in order to reclaim my shop(I have an office products company). I also need to do something with my cement floor it is "heaved-up" in the middle with large cracks to address.

My bird,'67 vert, has sat for a while now. When I replaced my body bushings I must not have loosened up the steering box enough 'cause afterwords it leaked like a sive(*sp)! At that time I saw that my holes on my subframe are rusted out. I drove it a little 'round town till my starter would not work when hot. Then my back was too sore from a rear-ender I suffered in my Durango. The bird hasn't left it's parking spot since.

Well, I'm ready to get things going again so I removed the steering box and bought a re-build kit and I rebiuilt it...well kinda. lets just say it was the cleanest core ever used to buy a fast ratio box. I also bought a late '67 400 long block($200.) and it has been dipped and it is in good shape (WOOOT!). The 400 is being re-built as we speak(~stock). I also ordered the subframe repair plates.


I'm gonna try and get my shop up and running this weekend, finish out stripping copiers,clean and organize...can't do much with the floor yet. This will allow me to pull the awsome '73 pont.350 (with 350Hood/trunk emblems on a '67 :shoothead ) that PO put in my bird(....oooh the power), and get the subframe off. With some luck I should have the subframe fixed and painted , 400 in, and Performance Suspension kit all done before next summer. I'll have to wait for the disk brakes.

I have to admit,I prolly wouldn't be so willing to do much of this if it wasn't for this forum and it's members.
This Lurker thanks you all!

Yea I can not really leave the jetski outside, its a nice ski and cost way to much to leave outside where I live in the city, someone might mess it up.

http://animalbag.com/Media/Firebird/Firebird_07/

I just stuck some pictures up online, you can check out of the work that has been done, its close to complete.

Tell me if you think those sway bars are huge or what? they seem allot bigger than I was thinking they would be.
Not sure were he got them.

I know he welded the rear brackets for the sway bars, even though the kit they can with was ment to have them bolted through the frame, he said that was easier since he would have had to move some things that were running through the frame to drill the hole the bolt was going to go threw.

I had herd people talking about a quick ratio steering box on here before, and never really loved the way my car handled, but now am really curious if I will like this new steering box or not. I had really just mentioned it to him as something to think about, and he had that part replaced first I think, so I hope I like it.

Other than the looks of the engine (looks way better than it did before) I am really hoping that with the new steering box, and getting rid of those air shocks, having the rear springs set correctly, and the sway bars will really help the drive and ride of the car, not to mention not having the kickdown hooked up right before.

BTW...
I stuck a picture of my jetski in there, cause I will be at the beach next week riding that thing around most the time and am getting siked!
Anyone on here even go to Myrtle Beach? Ill let them ride the thing if you find me down there, I am there a good bit in the summer.

Finally got my car back, check out some pictures if you get some time.

http://animalbag.com/Media/Firebird/Final/

Nice car. Not having the "Pontiac" on the tail panel gives a very different look.

You just mean the word Pontiac right above the gas tank?
I guess not having a rear spoiler makes a difference also.

Only one of mine has a rear spoiler, and that's a Camaro spoiler at that.

Yes, the P-O-N-T-I-A-C that usually is seen between the trunk latch bird and the bumper. Without it the look is different.

2 things that did not turn out like I thought they would have.

1) The paint on the engine is coming off on the intake manifold to the right of the carb, between carb and value cover, I guess exhaust flows right through there or something that makes it hard for paint to not want to come off? at least that is what I am being told.
Was told this was some kind of design flaw with that type of intake?
Getting a new manifold would fix this more or less.
Also getting discoloration close to exhaust manifolds (you can see this in pics)
I have a half empty can of the paint they used, forgot brand name (its out in my trunk) but its some I have seen at Pep Boys etc, and is Engine Paint with ceramic writen on it.


2) The shop had trouble getting the exhaust back between the new rear sway bars, so they put turn downs right after the mufflers, I am liking the way it sounds, but miss the tail pipes being seen on the rear, also I am very worried about getting exhaust inside the car, it has been very hot and I can not tell if I am getting dizzy cause it freaking VERY hot outside or because exhaust is getting inside the car. I was looking for a sensor or something but could not find anything made for a car.

They had trouble getting the AC back on correctly, said they would have to make some spacers or something, but I did not want to wait and the money was already getting to be more than enough spent, so I just put that off, I am considering just removing the AC completly with a heater fan kit or whatever, and just saving it, but not really sure what to do, going to have to think about it I guess.

1) It is no design flaw, it is the exhaust heat crossover that allows the choke to open by heating the bimetallic spring.

2) A stock exhaust can fit fine even with a rear sway bar, with either side or rear exits. It depends on the skill of the exhaust tech, it sounds like they took the lazy way out.

3) Had trouble getting the AC back on correctly? If it unbolts, it should bolt back up. Unless they lost parts or broke something, or you added late model heads without all the correct holes.

I bet a lot of folk mistake it for a Camaro not having the letters. Heck people mistake'em even with the letters.

Has anyone had issues getting paint to stay on that section of the intake manifold "exhaust heat crossover"?

I posted a picture of the issue here

http://animalbag.com/Media/Firebird/DSC05635.JPG

Usually it discolors and fades, rather than peeling or burning off completely. Unless you block the heat crossover passage in the heads, it will continue to fade.

I've had better success with Hirsch enamel, and even the Duplicolor didn't let go like that. In this area, the thinnest possible application of paint is best. Here's a pic of mine, a year after painting with Duplicolor.

Yea it is Dupli-Color paint, and I only drove it a couple days before the paint was coming off that bad.
I was not expecting that myself.
I will try to touchup that area with brush or something, keeping it thin, I guess, I have about half a can of the same paint that I can use.

BTW thanks for all the info Yellowbird

Just be sure all the oil is out of the iron, as that will cause the paint to release. Also don't let gas doesn't leak on it until the paint is fully cured (a couple of heat cycles at minimum).