First generation Firebird that is streetable and handles well to extremely well.

I am still trying to get my hands on a Firebird (finances are keeping it out of reach), but I figured in the meantime I would do some research on a build up for it. If yall could suggest what would get a 400 and a 428 in a Firebird to run 12.5 to 13 second 1/4 mile while being very streetable (this car will be used as my driver...not necessarily daily as I live close to my business) and also suggestions on getting it to handle very well. If yall have time, give me a run down on parts/specs. I am sure yall don't mind, as I am guessing yall love talking about this stuff. Thanks!

David

supercharger or nitrous, 4.10 rearend, overdrive tranny, forged pistons, performance valvetrain, crank, and rods.
electric waterpump, electric fan, fiberglass frontend, 3" headers and pipes. performance mufflers.

with the right tires, that might do it right there.
subframe connectors will help hold it together, but they'll also add weight.

Thanks Scott...I should have mentioned that I would rather not do it with any "tricks" so to speak. More so without NOS than say a supercharger though. So with that in mind...more suggesstions please

David

How big is your budget? For 20K, plus a car to start with, you can have exactly that! (Ask me why I know this.) If you have a good budget like this, then the possibilites are endless. The lighter you make the car, the less you'll have to get the motor to do.

There's a lot you can do with the right mix of parts. There are as many good combinations as there are opinions. If it has to run on pump gas, you may have some trouble making it down into the 12's without some very serious head/intake/exhaust work. If you can run higher compression, like 11:1 and over, it's not as tough. You'll have other problems to contend with instead of buying racing fuel and octane boost ... like broken axles and second gear intermediate clutches.

Also, having a car that turns 12's is usually a pretty crappy car to drive when it's cold or when you are just cruising to the office. I used to drive my Goat 35 miles to work. The first 10 miles was spent just getting it warmed up (in California - in the summer!), and it's not a fun car to drive when it's cold. The last 25 miles, however, is another matter.

Also, if you want it to handle good, do you also want a smooth ride? Those two don't always go hand in hand! In fact, a good handling car could be very, very bumpy.

Having a 12-second car means making a lot of sacrifices to 99% of the driving you're actually going to do. I'd make sure that it's what you really want to have. Otherwise, you'll probably be wasting money that's better spent elsewhere.

I sure hope you weren't looking for short answers!

Q

David,

You should EASILY be able to get into the mid 12s to 13 range with a 400, 428, or 455 without nitrous or power adders. I would recommend a 428 or 455. Depending on how much highway driving woudl determine the transmission. If you are going to do a lot of highway driving, put an overdrive in it, otherwise a TH400 with shift kit will do. As far as build up a MILD 428 or 455 would get you there, while a 400 would need to be only a little warmer with higher stall converter and steaper gear. I am more partial to the 455 (what's in my car), with ported and milled 6X-8 heads, Holley Street Dominator Intake, Holley 750 vacuum secondary carb, Lunati bracket Master II cam, 1.65 roller rockers, HEI ignition, Holley mechanical pump backed by a Holley red electric(not necessary), Block is milled .060" over and zero decked with TRW pistons. Compression is a pump gas friendly 9.2:1. It has 1 5/8 primary tube headers into a 3 inch collector into 2.5 inch pipe and 2.5 inch flowmasters. Also has the weld in subframe connectors as soon after I put the motor and tranny in it the body flexed enough to crack in the lower rear corner fo the driver quarter wondow. Rear leaf springs and sticky tires should easily put my 69 in the low to mid 11s. I'm afraid to put sticky tires on it though due to having the original 8.2 rear end in it. I'm still doing body work on the car, too, so it just sits still most of the time.

You're in Austin I see.....my old stomping ground. Grew up in Bastrop.

Hey yall...thanks for the replies. Q...as for the handling, I don't mind some bumpiness if its going to corner well. I have driven SUV's for the past 8 years and would want something at least better than how they handled (which I assume isn't hard to do).

Compression wise, in needs to run on pump gas...the good go juice is fine.

Drew...Yep, I am in Austin, grew up in NW Houston though, not far from Katy. Do you ever get over to Austin? What year is your Firebird?

I have been looking at a few first generation Birds that have 428's in them...and like what I have seen. Just right now financially I can't handle it...I am hoping that will change, but wanted to do more homework in the meantime. I want it to be a 4 speed and it will be driven on highways as well. Would a 428 with a mild cam, 6x heads, a 750 cfm carb with good traction (but not slicks) and a 3.55 rearend produce 12 second times as well as be good on the highway?

David

a 428 and a good rear end, tranny, and tires should get you close.

frame connectors, poly bushings and good shocks and brakes will help it corner. a dropped front helps too.

a frind of mine bought a 2nd gen with a 403 and a 4spd, factory a/c, 80,000 miles. i dont know what the rear end was, but we put headers on it, and i bent up some 2.5" duals with flowmasters for him. he came back from the track with 13.8 on his windshield, and told me he smoked the tires thru first gear. this was a one owner, previously unmolested '79.

13 seconds is very fast. i have a feeling we would've had to do a hell of a lot more to make it a twelve, but not too much more to get a low 13.

David , Drew has a 69 coupe , "multi colored" at this time LOL...he`s one of us 'magnificent 5'
( 69`s) here in west Houston,.... when you come to town we`ll try to get most of us together!
Bjorn

David, a fellow club member up here in Seattle Steve Leary has 3 birds, one really nice vert that looks close to mine, one hes working on and is his daily driver, and one he uses to drag with.

His daily and his drag car are built on a budget. And they are both in or near the 12's! One is a 400, the other is a 455. He has basically a stock botom end, some worked over Hi comp heads (mild porting, yet still runs on pump gas except for maybe race day) the right cam, intake, carb and exhaust combo etc.. It wouldn't take all that much to get there or close enough to put a big smile on your face!

Heads I would say are the biges piece of the puzzle, and I'm sure most would agree.

My last bird, a 68 with a 421, stock (intake, carb and exhaust) was WAY faster than my pretty stock 455, but with lower compression 6X4 heads also in stock form. But if (or when) I change the cam, I'll have the heads ported, and just that will make all the difference in the world!

Well, enough for me... and a vert that is. 400, 421, 428 or 455, they are all good for getting you there with the right heads!

Suspension wise, with just some poly bushings, solid body mounts, better front sway bar, a rear sway bar and some good gas shocks, and maybe some reworkes springs, and you'll be able to out drive your tires! Pretty easy to upgrade just a few things to make a big difference!

later - Brett!

Bjorn's right....it's currently a 69 "calico" bird. hehehe, somebody asked it it was some of that special color shifting paint which changes colors depending on what angle you look at it. Front right fender in black primer, blue hood, grey primer driver fender and doors, red primer on roof, grey primer on driver quarters, trunk lid and tail panel, and painted GM pewter passenger quarter. While I've been doing body work I hadn't really decided what color it was going to be. Now I do. So I will be priming the whole top of the car above the upper body lines in black, then the sides, front and rear in grey, then spray it with indigo blue on top and Pewter below the body lines with a transition stripe of some kind. Should look good....atleast in my head it does...

Brett is right the biggest improvement is in the heads. Depending on who you ask the 6X heads are the best flowing D-Port heads from the factory. With very little work you can see and feel a big difference in performance.

Keep your eyes open. I stole (legally) my bird from a college kid in San Antonio a couple years ago. It needed a lot of work, but by buying a parts car from Dallas and parting it out using what I needed and selling parts I have funded the entire project, thus far.....of course, I haven't painted it yet either. Car originally came with a 350 and 2 speed automatic. Now it has a 455 and a very nice full manual TH400 trans (thanks again Q!).

Bjorn and Drew...I definitely need to get with yall next time I am in Houston. I am not sure when that will be though.

So yall think a 400 or 428 with lightly ported 6x heads, a mild cam, and a 750 cfm carb would get me to about 13 flat? Also, would a tri-power set up help that much? I have been meaning to go bone yeard scavaging here in central and west Texas, do yall think that most of the 6x heads have already been picked over in the last 30 years?

I still really like that viper blue 67 Firebird 428 on collector car trader, but I can't justify getting it now (which means, I don't have the money...because if I did, I could justify it ).

Then there is a white 69 here in Austin with a 350 and 4 speed auto, which is just about the opposite of what I want (67/68 400 4 speed). It is owned by a musician that was thinking about recording at my studio. I tried to trade him studio time for the car, but he didn't bite. Figured if he did, I could trade it for what I wanted.

David

I'm running a 428 .060 over with 6X-8 heads, a 750 Holly vacuum secondaries, and a 229/239 at .05" of lift cam. The cam is almost a little too obnoxious for everyday street driving, but I can run 91 octane gas. At the track, I've only run 14.1 in the 1/4, but that's with an open 3.08 rearend. I basically had no traction and posted horrid 60-ft times.

With a posi and slightly higher (numerical) gears, I'll easily get down into the 13s. With better exhaust (headers, x-pipe) and carb and timing tuning (haven't touched 'em), I dream of getting into the 12s. 12s are tough, though, so I may have to be content with dreaming...

Though I don't have any personl experience with the tri-powers, I've heard a single 4 barrel will outperform the 3 dueces hands doen and they are MUCH easier to tune that 3 carbs at a time!

For a street car the performer RPM and a Q-jet or Edelbrock would do good for what you're looking for.

6X heads are still easy to come by. I see them on e-bay all the time. Someone here in Houston on the Py board said he sees them all the time in bone yards. For a 400 or 428 you will want the 6X-4 heads. When it comes time to find them you will want to know how to identify them. Keep an eye on the thrifty nickel. The show up in there from time to time and those are more regional than the papers.

Thanks guys...helpful info. Not having a car is killing me, but there is not much I can do about it. So I met go to plan B here and piece it together.

As for the tri-power, I was under the impression that they could help supply a few more ponies...but wasn't sure. And I see 6x heads on ebay a lot...will check the thrifty nickel too.

What about gears, which do you think would be better a 3.55 posi or a 3.73 posi? Also, which tire is the best compromise of street handling and traction for getting her to hook?

David

There's a 68' ram air bird that run's in the purestock factory race's in sept. here in stanton now my friend showed me time slips and this car runs in the mid 12's they go by the nhra rules.It's a cool race I believe it's the second weekend in sept. if anyone is interested in going.I'll be there.