Not sure who didnt like me saying the Firebird was not a "muscle car" but a "Pony car", but I just ran into this...where it agrees with my statement...
just fyi.
Quote:
The Pontiac Firebird was a pony car built by the Pontiac division of General Motors between 1967 and 2002.
The Firebird was introduced in the same year with its platform sharing cousin the Chevrolet Camaro. This coincided with the release of the Mercury Cougar, which shared its platform with another well-known pony car, the Ford Mustang.
The vehicles were, for the most part, powered by various V8 engines of different GM divisions. While primarily Pontiac-powered until 1977, Firebirds were built with several different engines from nearly every GM division until 1982 when all Pontiac motors were dropped in favor of corporate motors.
and....
Quote:
A muscle car is a high-performance automobile. The term principally refers to American, Australian and South African models and generally describes a 2-door rear wheel drive mid-size car with a large, powerful V8 engine and special trim, intended for maximum torque on the street or in drag racing competition. It is distinguished from sports cars, which were customarily and coincidentally considered smaller, two-seat cars, or GTs, two-seat or 2+2 cars intended for high-speed touring and possibly road racing. High-performance full-size or compact cars are arguably excluded from this category, as are the breed of compact sports coupes inspired by the Ford Mustang. Other factors used in defining classic muscle cars are their age and country of origin. A classic muscle car is usually but not necessarily made in the US or Australia between 1964 and 1975. Notably, the term "muscle car" did not enter common usage until after production of the cars had essentially ended. During their heyday, print media usually referred to this class of vehicle as "supercars".
pony cars:
Quote:
[edit] Defining the class The Mustang provided the template for the new class of automobiles. Although it was based on the platform of the Falcon, it had a unique body (offered as a hardtop coupé and a convertible) with distinctive, "long hood, short deck" proportions. In basic form it was mechanically mundane, with a 170 cu. in. (2.8L) six-cylinder engine and three-speed manual transmission. It carried an attractive base price of $2,368, and had an extensive option list offering a range of V8 engines, Cruise-O-Matic automatic transmission or four-speed manual, radios, air conditioning, power steering, and other accessories. A V8 Mustang with all available options would cost about 60% more than a basic Six, which made it an extremely profitable model for Ford.
The requirements were therefore set:
Attractive, sporty styling Affordable base price Extensive options, including six-cylinder and V8 engines Aggressive, youth-oriented marketing and advertising. While most of the pony cars offered more powerful engines and performance packages, enough to qualify some as muscle cars, a substantial number were sold with six-cylinder engines or mundane, "cooking" V8s, with the high-performance models largely limited to drag racing, road racing, or racing homologation purposes.
Pony car competitors Despite the immediate success of the Mustang, many (including some within Ford) feared that the bubble would soon burst, and other manufacturers were relatively slow to respond. The first competitor was the Plymouth Barracuda, which actually went on sale on April 1, 1964, about two weeks before the Mustang. The Barracuda was not a direct response to the Mustang, which had not yet debuted (although Chrysler was certainly aware of the upcoming model), but a low-cost way to expand the sporty appeal of the Valiant. Chrysler's precarious financial situation meant that the Barracuda was compromised, with insufficient distinction from the Valiant and styling that drew mixed reactions; its sales were a fraction of the Mustang's. (Some mentioned that if the Barracuda was successful, the term for this class of automobile might have been "fish car," rather than "pony car.")[1] [2] [3] [4]
Initially, General Motors believed that the restyled 1965 Corvair would be an adequate challenger for the Mustang, but when it became clear that the Corvair itself was doomed, the more conventional Chevrolet Camaro was introduced, going on sale for the 1967 model year, at the time the Mustang was entering its second generation. They were presently joined by the Camaro-based Pontiac Firebird, the Mercury Cougar, and, in 1968, the AMC Javelin. Dodge joined the party belatedly with the 1970 Dodge Challenger, an enlarged version of the Barracuda.
Last edited by Bjorn Sefeldt; 10/26/0712:01 PM. Reason: added pony cars
High-performance full-size or compact cars are arguably excluded from this category, as are the breed of compact sports coupes inspired by the Ford Mustang.
But then again, they only say the 'sports coupes' are excluded. Must be the verts are muscle cars!
High-performance full-size or compact cars are arguably excluded from this category, as are the breed of compact sports coupes inspired by the Ford Mustang.
But then again, they only say the 'sports coupes' are excluded. Must be the verts are muscle cars!
Lighter than mid-sized cars but with same engine. =extra muscle for my car
lots of times more "muscle" than a muscle car because of that situation...many GTO owners were upset with many of the hp vs weight Firebird versions....basically same engine with less weight...
High-performance full-size or compact cars are arguably excluded from this category, as are the breed of compact sports coupes inspired by the Ford Mustang.
But then again, they only say the 'sports coupes' are excluded. Must be the verts are muscle cars!
Poncho, that's why I brought up the Chrysler products in response to the frame vs unibody issue. All Mopars, whether designated as a muscle car (medium sized car with "full" size engine) or pony car (built to compete in the Mustang market), are unibody cars, so the people who cling to the "frame" idea are really grasping at straws to defend their cars. A better distinction might be a wheelbase of 110" or less.
Challengers are pony cars, 110" wheelbase, Cudas a little shorter at 108".
You guys are all bought out by a 40-year old bogus line. The term Pony was thought up by Ford geeks to create a class they thought they could control. Just like the horse itself.
Goobers and geeks allowed the phrase and the thought-process to gain ground and eventually become a market standard.
My 68 bird is not in the pony class or category, and it never was. Okay, I can see the Cougar being thrown in there, but not my monster Firebird.
I am not going down on this non-industry-standard bullcrap category, originated by Ford.
'68 428 HO M3 Monster, 4-on-the-floor! Need I say more?
I consider any small/midsize car with a large c.i. or HP engine a muscle car...period. Because thats what they were called before the wiennie magazine writers screwed everything up.
Pure American Muscle, thats what we got. With plenty of ponies.... Pony cars are those ones on a stick at the grocery store that you put a quarter in and let your kid ride on....
That was one of the criteria used by GM engineers in producing a follow up car to the mustang. Camaro came first, Firebird came second.
I only liked the fastback mustangs. The coupe never did anything for me. The F-Body had a natural slope to the rear window design and didn't require multiple hardtop designs to be sexy.
And the First Gen F-Body is one sexy b*tch.
Last edited by redvert68; 10/27/0701:22 PM.
Say hello to my leetle friend..Presenting the "FIRETOAD"
Okay. Ford "invents" the Mustang. Its a phenominal hit. It is a pony car. GM introduces the F body to compete with the Mustang. Use some simple logic and decide what your Firebird was intended to be.
Certainly, the phrase or label was promoted by Ford. They INVENTED the class. They gave birth to it. They named it. And thank God they did. Otherwise we'd all be on the Mustang forum right now.
I'm a hobbyist. Not a professional. Don't be hatin'!
call it what you like,very few resemble what they were when they came out of the factory by now so what does it matter?most have been modified to the owners tastes.
I think those pony cars at the grocery store are 50 cents to ride now aren't they? They used to be a dime! Now if they were to make a Firebird ride like that it would be a mechanical bull. YEE HAW!!!
This reminds me of a hotly debated topic over on PY lately.
Somebody's relatives pointed out that Ford started using the phrase "Super Duty" for their trucks WAY before Pontiac did and the Pontiac faithful had a really tough time swallowing that.
2012 Mustang Boss 302 #1918, Competition Orange. FGF replacement 2006 Mustang V6 Pony, Vista Blue. Factory ordered. 2019 BMW X3 (Titled to the wife, but I'm always driving it for her. So I'm claiming it) Old projects, gone but not forgotten: 1967 FB 400, original CA car. After 22 years of work, trashed by the guy who was supposed to paint it. I had to sell it. 1980 Turbo Trans Am 1970 Mustang fastback, 351C 4Bbl, auto 1988 Mustang GT, 5 speed 1983 F-150 4x4, built 302 1994 Chevy K2500 HD 4x4, 454 TBI
This reminds me of a hotly debated topic over on PY lately.
Somebody's relatives pointed out that Ford started using the phrase "Super Duty" for their trucks WAY before Pontiac did and the Pontiac faithful had a really tough time swallowing that.
Mid '50's from what I read at PY for the really large commercial type trucks. And to add insult to injury, the 1st Pontiac SD racers used the hood scoops inprinted with "Super Duty" taken from scrapped Ford trucks.
2012 Mustang Boss 302 #1918, Competition Orange. FGF replacement 2006 Mustang V6 Pony, Vista Blue. Factory ordered. 2019 BMW X3 (Titled to the wife, but I'm always driving it for her. So I'm claiming it) Old projects, gone but not forgotten: 1967 FB 400, original CA car. After 22 years of work, trashed by the guy who was supposed to paint it. I had to sell it. 1980 Turbo Trans Am 1970 Mustang fastback, 351C 4Bbl, auto 1988 Mustang GT, 5 speed 1983 F-150 4x4, built 302 1994 Chevy K2500 HD 4x4, 454 TBI
2012 Mustang Boss 302 #1918, Competition Orange. FGF replacement 2006 Mustang V6 Pony, Vista Blue. Factory ordered. 2019 BMW X3 (Titled to the wife, but I'm always driving it for her. So I'm claiming it) Old projects, gone but not forgotten: 1967 FB 400, original CA car. After 22 years of work, trashed by the guy who was supposed to paint it. I had to sell it. 1980 Turbo Trans Am 1970 Mustang fastback, 351C 4Bbl, auto 1988 Mustang GT, 5 speed 1983 F-150 4x4, built 302 1994 Chevy K2500 HD 4x4, 454 TBI
When I got my Firebird, some guy said: -Why does he want that car anyway?? -It's not even a musclecar...
-My reply was simple: Call it what you want, but my car will outbrake, outrun, do 0-60, 0-100, 1/8, 1/4 mile, faster than your car.
-Mind you he had a nice 72 charger (440-4), but it had stock heads, cam, drivetrain, only new carburator. (and a big stereo)
Same guy bought a 600 cfm edelbrock carb from me for THAT car. -telling me that it would be sufficient for his musclecar (he claimed it had 500 hp)..
Only goes to tell that whatever you call any car, if it's easy on the eyes, and fast as a mother it's proberbly a nice, cool car. Regardless of musclecar, pony car, sports car, or whatever.
-I'd call the high performance cars, -simply (as they used to be called)
Ut OH!!! Now you've went and done it Claus. Stepped on the 'Super Car' name. Here we go into a semantics debate over what a 'Super Car' is. Those, notoriuosly, are cars like the COPO's, Yenkos, Baldwin Motion, Royal Bobcat ect.