I'm asking for some expert FGF advice.
I'm wondering if I should rebuild the existing 350 in my 69 vert or pop in a new crate engine?
I know that rebuilding would maintain the "numbers matching" thing, but this isn't overly important to me.
I just want to DRIVE!!!! So I'm looking for reliability & driveability.
Rebuild? New w/carb? New with fuel injection? I've got a budget of about $5K.
Any comments, suggestions and advice is appreciated.
Thanks.

Have it rebuilt by Classic. 403-557-7223. You'll be glad you did.

I think you should keep it a Pontiac motor. I would rebuild the stock motor as my first choice. Next I would find a 400, 428 or 455 and have that rebuilt. Don't put a Chevy in it. My .02

When anyone mentions 'crate' motor, the first thought with Pontiac owners is, crate = small block Chevy. Nay say I to that idea. SBC's are for Chevys.

There's nothing wrong with the 350 poncho's. Rebuilding one with the right cam, intake and carb you have an HO. I know how much you want to DRIVE your 'bird, my convertible has been laid up for a year now. Thankfully I have my cammer to tool around in.

Keeping it as original as possible will help the value when it has to change hands. My convertible no longer has the original 400, and that has some impact on when I have to let it go. That's a couple of grand I'm missin' out on. Don't loose sight of the long haul.

$5,000 should get you a very healthy rebuilt original mill. If you want FI, ping John (hammered) about the process. Also Jared did that mod to. He's on the FGF list (e-mail). FI will cost extra I imagine.

Pontiac High Performance just featured a Pontiac 350 stroker build with well over 400 ft-lbs and 400hp from a 383 (yes, Pontiac).

Build the 350, a mild cam, a good intake and carb and free flow exhaust should be well under your 5K budget and be a healthy package.

The stroker engine in HPP is also pretty straight forward, the cast 4" stroke crank, should you go that route, saves a lot of $$$ over the aftermarket forgings, which you shouldn't need anyway.
Running larger valve Pontiac heads on a 350 you'll have to watch your cam lift, but a mild performance street cam should pose no problem. A 383 Pontiac should be a screamer, I plan on building one for my next project.

I'm happy with my rebuilt 350.

http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l61/RossettiJ/Engine%20Pics/?action=view&current=openwide.jpg

Somebody else built the short block. I just added #16 heads cam and quadrajet.

Looks real nice.... inspiring!

you can buy an out-of-the-box pontiac crate engine from butler performance. i beleive the price is just under $5000. your budget should get it to your door!

Thanks for your input (and Pontiac education).
Being a first time Firebird owner, I'm getting a sense of how keeping my 'Bird a PONTIAC is worth serious consideration.

I've kind of scrapped the crate engine idea and am down to deciding what to do with the 350.

Does anyone know of a previous thread regarding the conversion of a 350 to a 350HO?
If not a previous thread, then maybe someone out there can comment on this.
It sounds like this plan may be my best option.

Am I right to conclude converting to a 350HO keeps it somewhat "original" (& is less surgery than putting in a big block)?

All comments and suggestions are welcome!

Pontiac has no "big block" or "small block". As long as you stay with a Pontiac engine of mid 60s-late 70s vintage, anything from a 301 to a 455 will bolt in. There are a few to avoid, like the 301, but overall it'll be an easy chore if you do change displacements.

To make your 350 2bbl run like a 350 HO, you'll want to swap your carb, intake, heads and cam. For added performance you can update your exhaust to long branch cast manifolds (or headers if you like the noise). While you are at it, consider HEI and internally regulated alternator.

350 HO is a good performer in Firebird.

The 350 HO came with big valve small combustion chamber heads, a little hotter cam, a Quadrajet, dual exhausts, multi leaf rear springs, a 4 core radiator, 3 speed manual or 4 speed manual or TH400, 3.55:1 gears standard.

A couple of thing that I would consider

1. The Current value and does changing things hurt that value.
2. The cost or bang for the buck
3. Reliabilty - how you drive
4. Goal of the car. Sunday driver, weekend worrior, show car, fix up and sell ect..

To me I would just see at as a 350 car and I would not be to worried about ruining the value by changing the engine, although I'm only talking about changing it with another pontiac engine not a chevy. I'm not a fan of chevy swaps at all although I have considered an LS1.
Since rebuilding a engine is pretty much the same cost no matter what you build I would base the engine on what ever my goal is. For me it was power so I have a 455 in mine.
My suggestion would be put in a 400, use all the bracket and pulleys from the 350 and maybe even the heads depending on what they are. You would get more power and just as good of gas milage if not better.
A Buttler engine would be great or find a good engine builder that know pontiacs to build you one. my .02

Yeah, I'm wanting to refesh / upgrade the power without hurting the value of the car.

I'm definately looking for a cruiser with some power.
I'll be taking it on 400 mile roundtrip runs fairly often (4-5 x / yr) and Sunday drives around town.

I'm looking for reliability and dependability... with some PUNCH when you want it.

As you can tell from reading my threads, I'm not much of a tech.
I'm hoping to wind up with something that I don't have to "tweak & tune" everytime I want to go for a drive.

Stroker 383 with better heads.
You'll get rid of the 40 year old internals, externally it'll still look like a 350.
With the right cam-carb-intake package she'll be a daily driver with punch without the big inch engine.

dont keep it original.i need to sell mine and the more that are modified the more mine is worth

.... and here I was starting to believe EVERYTHING that I read on this site !!

go for that stroker 383.tub it out.put 4 wheel disc brakes,6 speed with a tubular sub frame and a replace those unsightly body panels with fiberglass ones

$5K builds alot of motor

And it will still look stock.

they have an article about converting the loley 350 into a 383 stroked pontiac with way more than enough power to take you on those trips you want. well into the5-600 hp range if i remmeber the article correctly. i have it at home if your interested in knowing of it. costs around 35-4500$ i think. ill look at it more in a while. at families house now.

$3500 is way too much money for a magazine article.
I wouldn't pay any more than $2000.

Get a 400 block or Motor,(use the 350 crank if you want) 60lb oil pump w/harden shaft, stock 4bb or Performer RPM intake with a Cliff Ruggles Q-jet, and a Dave's Small body HEI. Alway go with one of the aftermarket rods. Have the 350 heads gone through or even ported and use RA long branch manifolds from RARE. Get some roller lifters to top it off. Maybe a S grind cam??
Or get one of the 428 stroker kits for a 400 block with all the above mentioned parts.

If you can find a good machine shop up their have them get the parts you need from The Pontiac DUDE or Butler or someone else you can trust.
I think this would give you the reliability and power you are looking for. If its not enough then you only need to throw in a bigger cam.
Again my .02

this is doing all the machine work and buying new edelbrock heads. you can use a good set of iron heads and port them but the e-heads are where the combo gets its power.

and don't forget the roll cage

Don't pay attention to Terry, he's still PO'd they discontiued the Model T for the Model A.

ok. the article is in high performance pontiac. dyno sheet shows 462 hp. hope it helps. also there is a 455 article in the new pontiac enthusiast.

Even though it's not an HO or 400 drop top, I would think always having the original drive train would make it a little more valuable.


I would rebuild a different engine and store the original. There's no shortage of 400 cores around. It would suck to rebuild the original and have a rod go through the side of the block.

For $5K you can build a hell of a 400 and still probably have enough to get the 350 back to specs.

My .02

Thanks for the feedback from everyone and thanks for the reference material, Andy.
I'll read through this tomorrow.

I'm thinking of following your advice Robert, and keep the original 350 intact, rebuilding another.

I have a 400 block and crank and rods out of a 78 Trans Am. The machine work is done. PM me if you want to buy them for what I have in them. I'm satisfied with the modifications I've done to my 350. I don't need the 400 parts.

After getting a lot of good input from everyone, I've decided to pull the original '69 350 and hang on to it.

I've found a 400 block from a '71 GTO (keepin' it poncho!) and a local shop is building it for me.

If someone is familiar or has gone through this conversion, can you advise me about what parts are interchangeable and what parts I'll need to find? (i.e. timing cover, oil pan, etc.)

BTW - after reading a number of threads re: headers and advice from Ryan (rohrt), I'll be ordering long branch manifolds from RARE.

you will need the X fillers (for 400 & A/C cars) , very likely not on the car unless it was an A/C car(Ames FP 191 $99), the masticted lower fillers (Ames FP454, $14) also called "seal kit"(rubber fillers), and lower valance panel (Ames FP191L , but its fiberglass and for 67,68, you probably need a 69? and should try finding a used metal)

that should get you what a 400 had and 350 didnt....

I think the rest might fit...and if you have a 71 , shouldnt you have it complete?

mine is a 72 400 and came complete with a different PS pump, bracketry etc , but the X fillers and one of the rubber fillers were missing...changed 15F after I installed those..it HAD the lower panel for some reason. my car WAS a 350 non A/C car

Not complete Bjorn. Purchased the 400 block, crank, rods and heads.
The rest is being purchased separately and then assembled.
That's why I'm wondering how much external stuff can / should be swapped over.

Mine is a non A/C car, so I'll need the parts you mention.

The blocks are externally the same. Everything swaps.

so, look and see if you got any of what I mentioned , otherwise you`ll need those...the lower panel is the hardest to find! esp. for 69, one yr only...I managed to buy one for a buddy long ago....think it was off this site, maybe Salmon38? but you CAN find on EBay sometimes...should be around $45-100 plus shipping , and very likely will need some "work"...fiberglass works ,but I would worry about cracking it...the other parts are reproed...

( I know the metal lower is not, I even tried myself to get a guy here in town to do repros, but was too costly)

Lower air dam runs $200+ now for a decent original piece. By decent I mean with hammer and blaster and putty and paint it will look acceptable enough to bolt to a car, and not all rotted out around the bolt holes.

I may have one to spare, I'd have to check.

things do change ,dont they...

I just want to confirm... no issues with timing cover, oil pan or any other clearances etc. between a '69 350 and a '71 400?

My question is only regarding the engine swap, not the cosmetics of making this into a 400 clone.

Bjorn's comments were not about cosmetics. 400s need more airflow to adequately cool in the Firebirds, or significantly larger/more efficient cooling systems. Do a search on 400 cooling on this site and you will find many references to this.

Block holes will match up so that all 1969 accessories and pullies will mount. The only possible exception is the alternator bracket, check your left head for the appropriate hole for the pivot. You may want to replace the fuel pump with a '69 400 fuel pump (with or without return line as appropriate) and check the diameter of the stock fuel lines from the tank to be sure they match your pump.

Use the Firebird oil pan.

The blocks and heads are externally the same dimensions, so that if you have no clearance issues now you will not have clearance issues after the swap.