New(old) topic. I found a second 69 PHS with a ram air designation for a 'non air inlet' car.
Here's the first one;

And here's the second. Not a fluke now because there's at least two.

Look at your PHS 1969 Master Order sheet and tell me what it says for Option 348. I am guessing it says the same as mine...
L74 400 HO 4 BBL V-8

RPO codes are what the car was built on, not text. When PHS runs a report on '69 Ram Air III Firebirds, how are they identified? I guess that is the key to the solution.

There are two distinct versions of the 348 coming to light as I find more of these PHS reports. One which clearly states HO(pic below), the other that states RA(as seen above). There's another distinct difference which can't be ignored, that being the price charged for the option 348. There's no denying that there are two different things going on with prices and the ram air designation on the PHS for cars that have been lumped in with HO's in the past. The major arguments against there being two distinctly different designations going on is that there wasn't any way to order differently. Obviously, that is being held 'in error' now with these documents that I have been finding. There must have been two 348's that could be ordered. How else could you explain the big difference in pricing? The difference is consistent. RA 348 with a charge of $350 and HO 348 with a charge of $424. Different pricing means different optioning.... different 348 package.

Why would HO cost MORE than RA? Not arguing, just wondering.

I see one of the RA is a Royal car. What is the other? I'm wondering if they used a little sleight of hand to get the cars that would be dealer prepped out at a lower cost.

The logical reason for a lesser price would be less in the package. I'll see if I can get the full picture of the second RA PHS including the dealership.

Right. But if the difference in '69 between a 400HO and a 400 RAIII, both code 348, is limited to pans and hood flapper, and the RA has them and the HO does not...

Logic fails to provide the answer.

Logic always provides the answer...when you know the details. One possible logical explanation, that I outlined in earlier posts, was that the cars with the RA got the HO/RA 3 engine but were delivered with a few less parts that were in the HO package. These cars could have been destined to be functional ram air 3 cars that the dealerships supplied the ram air parts for an extra cost not shown on the PHS. This would be a good thing for some buyers because the 69 factory ram air pans were 'not that great' and complicated. It's just a theory at this point. But there's a Firebird Mystery here that now cannot be denyed. Or passed off as a misprint....

New information; The second RA PHS was from a Firebird ordered from TROTTER PONTIAC-NILES,OHIO. This shows it isn't as isolated as some have tried to convey....

Just trying to figure out what you could take OUT of the HO pkg to make a cheaper RAIII?

It would be nice to see this one come up with an answer.

Dateline November 21, 1967: Fleck Pontiac Inc. at 430 Youngstown-Warren Road in Niles is purchased by Wallace Trotter of Columbus. Trotter, a Youngstown native, has been in the automobile business in Columbus for 10 years.

$74 in parts. Closed scoops and the stock air cleaner + ?

Finding out the answer could make those few RA 3's worth more... or less...

The closed scoops list at $5.55 each (73 parts index) and the air cleaner housing $51.95. Could be a few nickel and dime parts like heat riser to go along with that. Pure supposition, of course...seems as if it would be rather irresponsible (and illegal) for the factory to ship a car without the mandatory carburetor flame arrestor installed and the air filter to protect the engine during loading/unloading/dealer prep and lot.

And...if anything was deleted from an order, there should be note of it either on a body or chassis broadcast, or on the invoice.

It's not that complicated to have to notate the order. There's nothing deleted, just no air inlet package. They put everything on the car they would a ram air car and then didn't add the ram air inlet parts.

You can't sell a car without an air cleaner, either RA or closed would have to be installed. There is a Federal Reg for flame arrestors.

That's a small hurdle for an automaker to come up with loner air cleaners of a small amount of cars. They have white collar bean counters all over the front office that could smooth that one over.

What are the build dates of the two 'RA' cars?
Do you know of HO cars built in the same timeframe?


I really wish this topic could be broke off into a thread of its own.

See other posts in topic as this was created to split topic off.

Looks like 11/18 and 11/27 Lordstown on the two marked RA. The one marked HO looks like a May built Norwood.

Thanks Geoff.

I went down that trail of thinking too. I noticed that the PHS's I had from the R/A cars had a different format. The 400 car designation was in the middle column and the HO's were in the first column. And then I found this(below) HO PHS which shows the same format as the R/A's.

That one is pretty fuzzy. What's the plant, the date, and the first two of the last six of the VIN, if your copy is legible?

Sorry, I got that one second hand as a picture. It's late. Has a 70 date.

Do you guys have any others PHS sheets for cars built at LOR during Nov or earlier?

Scary, but I searched and I do! Another 11/20 LOR car with R/A and the lower price. So that makes 3. I don't have any earlier sheets with that option to see when this started.

With it being such a limited timeframe, I'd say it's just a difference in the data being printed. But more data will confirm that.

I would agree..except for for the price difference. That part doesn't fit the theory. When you take the two things, HO/RA and the price difference, there's something more going on than a printing difference.

Yes, we have lots of 400 car PHS's for that time frame. And several 400 HO's.
Kurt,
Could you post a picture of that third RA 3 PHS?

Another thing that would help is to know how much the charge is on a 69 ram air option. To compare with the $350 price..... I have a couple contacts with 69 RA's but do not have pictures of their PHS's. I'll put out an inquiry to them for this....

I found the original still online. It's one of the Comanche cars. And it has the HD air cleaner.

[img]http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=103747&d=1188942477[/img]

***argh** That image UBBcode works in other forums, but not here? So I added it as a file, that seems to work.

Here's the thread where the car is discussed: http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=533280

My experience with pricing changes like this is that it was a temporary thing that got fixed. I've seen similar on Camaros - not common but it happened.

Can you send me an HO sheet that's a little earlier than this? Curious to look at a couple of things....

I don't like the looks of that document. It reminds me of a teenager changing their grades! The three most important areas have a funny look to them...... Probably a copy after some highlighting.

It is a photocopy of a highlighter-marked Canadian invoice. It looks fine to me.

You didn't see where I said that...lol. There's nothing 'fine' about those Canadian invoices.... They are the most fudged docs out there... I seen a half a dozen forgeries.

As always, if in doubt you can order your own. I don't blindly trust a PHS even direct from phs-online, I've had a few mistakes on the markups.

I'm sure there are more fudged docs out there in the Chevy and Mopar worlds where pricing is even more extreme.

The 348 package pricing on the Comanche and the other two 348/non 611 invoices is the same, $253.08. And all are dated the same month.

I read that the Comanche is accepted as RAIII. Did the dealer install the pans? It doesn't really prove anything either way. It goes in that third column. Not HO and not functional ram air. Non functional ram air III from the factory.

Nowhere on the Comanche press releases or dealer info packet does it list it as a Ram Air III.

For what it's worth, the owner describes it as ram air III.

Oh yeah, the invoice also says it.... I think that's what RA stands for....

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=533280

http://www.firebirdgallery.com/projlot4.htm#Frank_Firebird

http://www.firebirdgallery.com/dealer_installlot1.htm

http://www.motortopia.com/album/view/p/c...m_for_more_info

I see nothing to make this particular car a RAIII, but it has all the parts for a 400 HO. Anyone have an original window sticker (not a reprint) for a 400 HO or Ram Air from this same timeframe?

Dealer invoice was for the dealer's use. I am curious to see what the buyer saw when they bought the car.

The dealer invoice is the very first official document for a car. And if that document says RA...then it's RA. You can't argue with an invoice...

I can't argue with the 348. The text...I can, and do. More samples are needed from HO and RA from same timeframe.

RIGHT! ALL the 69 ram air III cars have the 348..... Some with the inlet, some without. Same engine for all RA III(and HO).

Okay...say it was October 1968 and I wanted to order a Firebird 400 HO. What would my master order sheet say? 348...would not say 611.

And the guy next in line wants to order a Firebird 400 RA. What would his master order sheet say? 348 and 611...otherwise our cars would be the same, but he'd have to pay more.

Brad (Sammiesbird), can you put up a pic of your 400 HO sheet? I don't remember what the date was, but it will be helpful anyhow in establishing invoice markups.

And...does anyone have an RPO pricing sheet from anytime in the 1969 model year?

I think it's all very obvious what was going on at the dealerships back in late 68 and 69. They were touting the 'non-functional ram air III' or, if you like, 'RA III sans pans'. and the paperwork shows it. Many old timers I've talked to over the years have referred to the ram air III without pans. It's exactly the same as an HO. One in the same. It's good to see all these testimonies of 'real people' corroborated by the invoices. Voices backed up by invoices! The stiff collars will still say the only 'real' ram air cars have pans. But they have all along.... The truth lies in common sense.... the 348 cars ALL have the same engines whether 'panned' or 'not panned' so they are all RA III.

I'd be careful speculating what was different on a car via just a name & price difference on the invoice. The 348 code equalled an RPO code and both of those were defined and fixed in the system.
Way too early to call on this one.....

Of course, it would help me if y'all would spell out the differences between the two options (RA and HO) for me, the Firebird uninformed.