we are getting really fast to nowhere here ......at least I dont have an Ho nor RA car, and Im still happy about mine...

I haven't ever owned one either! Just trying to help a brother out that does... DON'T TAZE ME BRO!!!

Ah, so you have a vested interest in the wrong conclusion. That's twice as wrong.

The harm comes in propogating an illusion.

If there were no PHS, and if you had a '67 with a date correct and code correct engine and the seller told you it was the original engine, your choices would be to believe it or disbelieve it.

With PHS, we have engine unit numbers. Proof that it is (or was an accurate forgery) or was not.

Propogating an untruth is not good for anyone. Especially with the kind of $$ a Ram Air commands.

'My Brother' was a general term used to describe a friend in the hobby(any 1st gen owner)... I have nothing to gain but happy hobbiests. And you have overstated your opinion...again.... Which turns another page....

The Firebird 400 was again the most desirable model of the bunch. For 1969 three different 400 mill options were available: the standard 400, the 400 HO (RAIII) and the legendary RAIV. The standard powerplant, equipped with a 4bbl carburetor remained relatively unchanged from 1968 producing 330hp. Firebirds carrying the standard 400 received non-functional hood scoops, a floor-mounted shifter and dual exhaust. The 400 HO added a high-output cam and a freer flowing exhaust system for an increase to 335hp. This engine was also called the Ram Air III and the hood scoops were made functional. The final option was the RAIV. The pinnacle of Pontiac engineering this engine added a high-output cam and springs, oversize valves, and flat-top pistons with valve indents. It was rated at 345hp. This model is most easily recognized by the twin-scoop hood with "400" emblems located on the rear edge of the hood bulge.
Cost for the standard 400 option: $275 with manual tranny and $358 with automatic
Cost for the 400 HO: $77
Cost for the RAIV: $832


The photo's Jim show's is just a non fuctional ram air III car.

Thanks for the back-up bro.

Just trying to catch up on this thread. Very interesting!

1. The RAIV option included the 611 Ram Air Inlet (I have several non-TA RAIV invoices). I have seen 1 example of a RAIV with 611, and it was generally acknowledged that the dealer “double-dipped” the customer for an option that was already included in the RAIV option.

2. The 400HO WAS the Ram Air III in 1969, but for the Firebird only. The 400HO in the 1969 GTO was called the "Ram Air" engine, and they used "400 R/A" on their invoices.

For a clearer explanation, if we go back to 1968, the 400HO engine in the 68 GTO consisted of a better cam, better exhaust manifolds, etc., but the scoops were CLOSED. Next up on the pecking order was the Ram Air option (known later as Ram Air I), and then the Ram Air II engine. Both GTO Ram Air engines (I & II) had open scoops, the 400HO did not. In 1969, the GTO combined the 400HO engine with Ram Air, and they called it Ram Air 400. But the Firebird kept the 400HO designation, and allowed the customer to order Ram Air separately. The Firebird 400HO, and the Firebird 400HO/611, were the same engine, just different hoods.

As for the 69 Bird hoods, when a car came down the assembly line with the 400HO/611 checked (or a RAIV), a different hood (not just a change in scoops) was used. The Firebird Ram Air hoods did not have the holes punched in the sides of their scoops for the 400 emblems, and there was a section of underhood bracing cut away for the upper pan. As we know, the 611 option (with 400HO) used a different lower pan than the RAIV. All this was work was special to the Firebird, and the GTO Ram Air cars did not have to go through so many gyrations. Of course, then came the installation of the upper/lower pans, flapper, foam, pull cable, etc (like the GTO), but the 69 Firebirds also used special carb studs (to hold the pan down), and a flame arrestor screen over the carb. Lots of extra work for $61.

Over the years, people referred to the 1969 GTO Ram Air engine as the Ram Air III, and likewise, the Firebird 400HO as the Ram Air III, whether the Firebird had actual Ram Air or not.

To my knowledge, the term "RAIII" was never used by Pontiac.

That lines up exactly with what I've heard from the old collectors. They used the 'ram air III' termonology for all the 348 cars. Their logic was that they all had exactly the same engines so they are the same, R/A III. It was one of those things you remember. Walking up to a serious collector and his collection and hearing the terms when describing his cars. It's good to hear their sentiments echoed now. It's hard for it to get through some of the overstated opinion and exclusive ideas.

Very nice. Do you have any invoices you can post for 611 and non 611 348 cars from various dates? It appears, with limited info available, that this combination was GENERALLY labelled 400 HO on the invoices and a few invoices list 400 R/A like the GTO.



Jim, perhaps you'd like to reread that thread and separate FACT and POPULAR NOMENCLATURE before you decide it perfectly fits what you have been saying.

Yes, I have a few copies of the invoices for 611 cars. Since I haven't asked for and haven't received specific permission to post these here. And you have implied that it's inappropriate to post these. And then after I post them without VINS you discredit them I'll just answer any questions you have about them(without posting them).

If they came from eBay or PY or elsewhere on the web the viewing has been placed in the public domain. Best way when possible is to link back to the original post by the owner. If not, conceal the last two or three digits of the VIN, that is sufficient to mask the specific ID of the car and yet to gather relevant information.

I was actually asking Stealthbird if he had any invoices.

The invoices I have for the 611 cars came directly from the owners of the cars. With your exclusive attitude, don't expect much forthcoming directly to you. I suppose you could use an alias to get info???

LOL, the 611 cars ARE Ram Air equipped.

I don't need an alias, people either agree or disagree with me but I don't play games and play both sides of a debate.

The more information that is available, the better for everyone.

????

This all sounds like personal "interpretation" based upon what one has heard and or believes to be true more or less, as each side could easily read the same document and come away with a completely different "interpretation" of said document.

I think at this point it's best to agree that not everyone shares the same view and move onto documenting more actual information.

I have my own opinion that a car could have the Ram Air Engine, but an actual Ram Air "Car" would have the actual Ram Air Package and as such, would think it would be called out under a specific designation on the paperwork as stated. To me it makes more sense that it's the whole package (including functional RA) that makes it a Ram Air "car".

That is what I understood from a lengthy conversation a group of us had with Jim Wangers in talking about the differences in the GTO/Firebird lines and the higher end cars such as the H.O.'s, RA, TA's and later SD cars and how they were established. He did say there were a LOT of changes made due to inter-office politics and lots of things were worded specifically to be able to sneak things through the system so to speak. But again, that's just my interpretation.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread...

What I started the thread to show was what I've heard, over the years, about the ram air three cars, has a little 'back up' on paper. Before I came to this board, before there was a board, before anyone used an internet, we talked about these cars at GM. Most of the guys are dead and gone now. I'm talking about the war vets that came back and bought new Firebirds. They knew the cars from the consumer end of things. They spoke of the ram air III cars they owned. Some with functional hoods, some without. Now I have found paperwork(original invoices) with ram air right on them. And, low and behold, they do not have the functional hood! Many of the corporate 'big wigs' just see things from the corporate point of view. I look at it from the consumer point of view too. Many of the real consumers and the old collectors fondly called all the 348 cars in 69 ram air III. So you have real people with real public information AND original invoices that back them up.

Why don't we (or I) call Jim Mattison or Scott Tiemann and ask them their definitive answer on this matter?

Not picking sides, but this issue, matter, debacle or whatever anyone wants to call it is self destructive and pointless without solid proofs.

Other than that, this is pure opinion, speculation, hearsay and conjecture based on Canadian PHS, copied PHS and nothing of first hand nomenclature of ownership of a personal vehicle and progressed digging from a first hand owner of one or either a 69 HO or "RAIII" car.

I personally, and from years of seeing inspecting and potentially purchasing the rarer Firebirds can not say what is what. GM did seperate the GTO and Firebird billing within the Pontiac division billing codes, that I know for certain. GM also had errors from one plant to the other, that is also a known fact. So from Norwood to Van Nuys to Lordstown, there may have and likely most certainly have been oversights in billing codes and how the billing history was ascertained. Remember this was the 60's. Auto makers were rushing to compete and market. So what happened on GTO billing did not necessarily pertain to Firebird. As well GM did not recognize the RAIII as a "performance option" rather a differentation between the HO and "RAIII" by an RPO code which was the RA pans only. Part of this, if I remember correctly was from a conversation between Jim Mattison and I over an 8 hour period where I spent uninterupted time with him on a Sunday past at the Autorama.

So..since GM officially did not truly recognize the RAIII as an option per se for Firebird, GM did in fact take the HO and turn it into a "RAIII" by designation of the open air inlets and pans. There was some confusion regarding the designations of RA between the Firebird and GTO on billing...Take it FWIW. All a RAIII is is an HO with open air inlets and a supposed added RPO. I have not studied any of the billing histories, but one thing is likely certain. A "R/A" car can not be ordered without a 3.90 or 4.33 rear. I believe my 68 HO could not be ordered with a 3.90 or 4.33 rear based on the billing. If I remember correctly, a "R/A" could only be ordered with a close ratio and a numerically higher 3.55 to 4.33 rear. I may be wrong, but I do not have, nor do not want to go through 10 volumes of published reference material to prove or refute. So...with this, true "R/A" cars should (SHOULD) have the "can only be ordered with RPO code...options (rear end and trans) So...If they are true "R/A" cars, they should ALSO have the R/A mandated rear ratios and trans (close ratio)<speculation. So..the body brodcast sheet AND the billing history is needed to make an assertion of a claimed printed copy of A "R/A" car in my opinion. One must be able to tell what axle ratio came in a "R/A. I see the Commanche Firebird having RPO code 358 Close ratio trans, RPO 361/362 special order axle/posi and 348 R/A. Unless the Hydramatics have the PQ designation, it is an HO. Maybe someone can decipher a 69 order sheet and compare it to the ones posted here as I AM NOT a 69 expert and never owned one. But from looking at the other two, I see NOTHING other than a "R/A Firebird" on the billing history..no Special axle, no Close ratio trans..So to me those cars, other than the Commanche IS NOT a R/A 69 Firebird. Then anyone can argue "why is there no 611 RPO on that Commanche?" Well???

Not to single anyone out, but I find this, well, odd.



Ram Air IS NOT just an engine option, it is a package WITH the addition of a functional "RAM AIR" hood. Other than that it is an HO, plain and simple. Why else would it be called "RAM AIR" without the functional hood, scoops and pans? It would be then called an HO, wouldn't it? My WQ 68 is the same motor as the 69 WQ isn't it? same cam, long branches, head flow, valve size, minus open scoops and pans. I have a 68 HO/RA 68 Firebird then, minus the hood pans and scoops but I do not have the mandated axle and trans.

The rarest Ram Air cars...The 65 built in 67 had no numerical designation (L67 RPO) 68 had the RAI and RAII and 69 had the RAIV. All had the ram air pans WITHOUT exception. According to the above captioned statement, I am to believe that some of these cars DID NOT have a functional Ram Air hood with pans and open air inlets? Thats how I read the comment. So a RA II or RA IV without a functional hood is called WHAT? I just don't get it.

Personally, I find this all amusing with someone stating they seen Elvis at a diner outside Rolla Missouri and someone with common knowledge that he (Elvis) is in fact dead and has left the building.

Other than that, arguing a point based on copies and little if no first hand knowledge is tantamount to a stalemate. Logic defies reason ONLY if no descrepancies between the other plants which manufactured the Firebird exists.

I am CERTAIN to get some blah blah blah about this, but unless someone has indesputable written documentation stating there were absolutely NO misprints, differentation or "slight of hand" differences between the plants, I will dismiss any "conjecture or speculation" as opinion. We should also be prepared to read more speculation and mottled haze about supposed conjecture and refutation in order to save face and stature of third hand information twice removed by someones friends third cousin's babysitter.

Banshee, well said.

My theory (that I stated previously) was that the 348 option and 611 may have been combined during the year to be listed as "R/A".

Theories theories....

Theory #1 - Earlier in the year, dealers may have ordered 400 H.O.'s for customers, and they may have thought that ordering code 611 was not necessary. I would imagine some salespeople may have thought that ordering BOTH options would be double-dipping the customer. Earlier, I made a reference to the 67-68 cars, and how the Firebird and GTO always had the same performance engine options. Based on this history, if I were a salesperson NOT very familar with the subtle nuances of the performance engine options for 69, I too may have assumed that option 348 on the Firebird INCLUDED Ram Air, and believed that ordering the 611 code Ram Air Inlet was double-dipping.

Look at how confusing this entire thread has become, and imagine some salesperson trying to order a Firebird 400 for a customer, while sitting in a little office, with other customers wandering the showroom looking at Bonnevilles, Grand Prix's, Lemans 4-doors, station wagons, GTO's, convertibles, etc. Hindsight is 20/20, but look at all that has been said and speculated 39 years after this happened, when at the time, it was just another car for a customer.

Theory #2 - The 69 setup was a one-year only deal, and Pontiac (and everyone) knew the 70's were coming since back in 1968, and the new 70's would not use the 67-69 style hood. It's possible that with thousands of Ram Air pans sitting in inventory, coupled with the fact that Ram Air and RAIV Firebirds were not exactly setting sales records, and the extremely disappointing sales of the 69 Trans Am, may have caused Pontiac to simply include Ram Air on all 348 option cars in order to move the setups out of their inventory.

Theory #3 - Also remember that later in the year, Pontiac LOWERED prices and options for the 69 Firebirds because of the strike, delaying the 1970's several months. They included some items, previously listed as options, to be standard equipment. This may have been the time when code 348 included Ram Air, with very little (if any) change in price.

Now if someone has a late year invoice with 348 and 611, that blows theories #2 and #3.

Let us keep in mind that one of the three invoices that has been on display with Firebird400R/A is accountable. The owner is here and accounted for. The paperwork is real. There is knowledge of the car. And, drum roll, it never had pans....

We could also theorize that GM stamped thousands upon thousands of pans for an anticipated increase in sales based on the Camaro performance. Remember that Camaro in 67 and 68 outsold the Firebird 2.7 to 1. So Pontiac could have, with the voracity of Wangers and Delorean and the design team of Pontiac, ordered and anticipated the performance versions of the RAI, II to exceed the actual production figures. There were 523 RA1 and II's sold that year out of 107,000 produced? That is less than 2% of total production. Compare that to the GTO RAI and II Compare that to Z28. Based on the flood of what 20 different models from 10-15 different divisions (Chevy, Pontiac AMC, Ford, Mercury, Chrysler, Plymouth, Dodge) with hundreds (yes hundreds) of different powertrain options, you get a very volitile and competitive market. Remember, you could order a Camaro with 8 different 8 cylinder motors in 68-9. This lead to extremes in overproduction and, in my opinion, Pontiac lead the performance and design aspect from 65-69.

Gm likely had a stockpile of the pans (theory) and realized that the RA I and II's did not sell well and decided to "create" a RAIII which, in essence and fact is only a 69 HO with open air induction. This, I believe if I remember what I read was not necessarily a planned "option" for the 69 Firebird. There were no internal engine differences to differentiate a HO form a RAIII as there was for the 67 RA, 68 RAI, 68 RAII and the 69 RAIV. (valvetrain, heads, springs, cam, exhaust) There were external differences to denote a RA car which is a close ratio trans and/or a higher 3.90-4.33 rear and the addition of the pans and open hood scoops. (AFAIK)

This leads to mid year biling and option changes, confusion and overall limbo of what is what. GM never anticipated, in 1968 that they would have a RAIII for Firebird. I have read that in many books (opinions from many sources).

If I remember correctly, there were no engine modifications (stouter valvetrain) to designate this 69 D port RA III as they had done with the 67 RA or RAI. SO, I conclude that GM did not ever anticipate a RAIII release until they realized an overstock of pans due to very poor RAI and II Firebird sales. Again, remember the RA and RAI was a D port design with taller stiffer valvesprings and an 744 cam. The 68 HO, 69 HO and 68 RAII all had a smaller cam (068) and no head mods. The 67 RA had 670 heads, changed to 97 or 997 with the spring pads machined down to accept 1.171 springs and a larger cam (744) over the base 67 Firebird 400 (066 or 067). We can also throw in specific calibrated carb numbers as well for all these, but really not significant.

In conclusion, all this is based on reading only about one specific model over a 3 year production run. Is it true? It is unknown until someone of stature, integrity and first hand knowledge can write a factual believable book based on fact.

Most of the 67-9 Firebird books are complete B.S. Including the "Red Book" by Peter Sessler, "Pontiac Firebird Restoration Guide" by Joe Moore and McCarthys book "Pontiac Performance". There many descrepancies in the first book, the second by Joe Moore is HORRIBLE and the third has many factual errors in the first two printings that have gradually been corrected. I am not downplaying McCarthy, but I believe it was a publishing or other error not within McCarthy's control.

We can also look at the 69 HO and RAIII like this.

If the HO and RAIII were different, as in a huge difference, how many RAIII cars were mandated to have a close ratio transmission AND numerically higher 3.90-4.33 rear end? I believe the ONLY way you could order a RAI or II was with a close ratio trans AND 3.90 or 4.33 rear.

If you have a RAIII (which is not any different than a 68 or 69 HO/WQ block code) is there ANY proscribed mandates in the checklist availability stating that a RA III has to be ordered with a close ratio trans and a 3.90-4.33 rear? If not, the car is an HO with functional open air hood.

Sure one can say a 69 400 HO is a RAIII with RPO 611. But the engine is no different, is it? A RAIII is only a RA III because of sales nomenclature. There is no internal difference between a 68 HO, a 69 HO and a 69 RA III engine. The ONLY difference is the addition of RPO 611.

Then you can look at this..

https://firstgenfirebird.org/firebird/1969/options.html

"T42 Ram Air Hood Inlet - opt. 348 only 611"

Option 348 was the L74 400 HO 4 BBL. V8 348.

Would seem to me that there was only a true 400 HO. Some sources call it a Ram Air, but GM called it on paper an HO. These option charts were published way in advance for distribution to dealers. Would seem to me that the HO was available only at the beginning of the model year and possibly after printing, the 611/348 codes were available to loosly (but not officially GM) call this new fledgling a RA III. Since all other "Ram Air" cars had open scoops, past and with the RAIV, would only serve as appropriate (whether correct or not) to call the 348/611 a Ram Air, yet, not a "true" Ram Air.

So, I say a 348 coded HO with a 611 optioned Ram Air hood scoop/panned 69 Firebird is a HO. Unless someone can provede a service bulletin or other official document stating otherwise, this to me is an HO. Maybe on paper a "R/A" on the billing history means a 348 coded HO with a 611 (hood scoops/pans) as an all inclusive package (348/611 combined), but remember this is NOT a true "Ram Air" car as the engine was the same as an HO.

Then take a gander at the powertrain chart to see the difference in RA and HO for 68.

https://firstgenfirebird.org/firebird/1968/sales_manual/O-chart1.html

According to whom believes the first link in a RAIII car?

Banshee, reading your post from earlier, it sounds like you and I have the same theories.

While I have the utmost respect for Jim Mattison, I'm not sure he would be able to shed any light on this subject. All he would be able to do is look through his PHS library of invoices. Jim was not connected to Pontiac Motor Division in any way back then. He worked in Chevrolet’s Fleet and Special Order Department from 1967-1972, which initiated the Central Office Production Order form (COPO cars).

Personally, I believe the current crop of researchers, using the internet and painstaking detective work, would have a better grasp on what occurred with the 69 Firebird HO/RA cars. As stated earlier, we need hard documentation, in the form of Pontiac bulletins or memos, about what happened during the 1969 model year. I know SOMEONE must have this documentation.

I believe a great deal of information has been unearthed in the past few years, with the help of the net. Hopefully, the research and knowledge that you (and others) have provided will eventually clear up this issue.

What Mattison may be able to provide (after the fact) and after the PHS is sent to the owner or buyer is feedback for what is what.

Say I am looking at a correct 68 HO with original ram air pans. Of course not a ram air car, but lets say I call Mattison and say hey, this is this, I found this my build date is this and it came from this plant. I understand he is only involved with the PHS aspect, but he does see alot of anomolies.

I am sure if I asked, I may be able to copy some 69 HO and "ram air III" billing histories if I did it on my time. Can't hurt to ask and of course, I would expect, even insist the VIN's be covered over with marker to protect the integrity of the service.

I believe the best way, for now, is to have a running list of build dates, plants, dealers delivered to and all the options on the billing history. There are options that are unable to be combined with RA cars and that would help in deciphering what is an HO and what is a RAIII.

I still insist that all 69 Firebirds were designated as an HO unless 611 was specified. If the nomenclature orientated enthusiasts called it a RA because of a billing oversight, so be it. If it is because Pontiac needed to sell cars and never planned or announced a RAIII (because of the HO and RAIV) so be it.

My contention is that there are no real "true" RAIII cars and that according to all I have written, is a guess.

I do like the ad Vikki posted referring to the HO, RA (not identified as RA III) and the RAIV. If Pontiac, at time of that ad (9/68) knew this would have been named a RAIII car, they (GM) would not have referred to it as "Ram Air". In all the loose Pontiac ads I have from 1966 to 1969 read, the RAI and RAII and RAIV were VERY pronounced and NOT generic as in the case of the 1969 "RA" as so stated in GM's advertisement.

For what it's worth, the original Pontiac car distribution bulletin, sent to all Pontiac Dealers on February 7th, 1969, alerted the dealers that the new 1969 Trans Am would begin production approximately April 1st, 1969, and be built in the Norwood or Van Nuys plants. The bulletin lists the RPO codes that the Trans Am would consist of, along with items such as full length stripes, airfoil, Cameo white/blue stripes only, specific hood with longer scoops, etc.

The first two items listed are:

Code 348 - 400 HO engine (L-74)
Code 611 - Hood Ram Air Inlet (T-42)

Of course, we know the 69 Trans Am hood was unique, and did not have a flapper assembly like the standard Firebird Ram Air or RAIV hoods did, but this is what Pontiac called the Trans Am engine at that time.

I still like my theory that later in the year, Pontiac combined the "348" and "611" codes into "R/A" on the invoices.

If not, then the term "R/A" was used throughout the year, based on assembly plant, while "400HO" was used for other plants. Remember, "R/A" was used on GTO invoices to signal the Ram Air Engine (aka RAIII), so perhaps a Firebird assembly plant used "R/A" on their Firebird invoices in a similar way, whether it actually had the Ram Air hood or not.

The 1968 Ram Air models (Bird or GTO) used 3.90 or 4.33 gears, but this was not the case for 1969 Ram Air models. The 1969 Firebird 400HO, whether it had Ram Air or not, came standard with 3.55 gears, ditto for the 69 Trans Am. The RAIV's of course were standard with 3.90's, optional 4.33's. The same gear ratio options were used on the Ram Air GTO's and Judge's.

For what it's worth, (at least)one of the three R/A invoiced cars (shown earlier) had the 3.90 gears... Maybe two of the three because I see 'special order axle' for the Commanche car...

The hood design changed for Trans Am between the February and the March bulletins. That's why the description for the February is the standard Ram Air package.

But again it's a fine example of how Pontiac engineering labelled the engine as a 400HO. All the design and production and marketing info brought to light so far match up.

February bulletin
March bulletin
April bulletin

Agreed..

So the 348 could have been 400 HO or R/A..

To break it down...

1. 348 400 HO
2. 348 400 R/A with addition of 611 but not seen on billing
history with the 611 in the billing history.
3. 348 400 HO with 611 added in the billing history.
4. 348 400 R/A with 611 added in the billing history as a
seperate RPO

I do not know, as I have said in the past I am not a 69 Guru. What specific breakdown has been seen on the billing histories as it pertains for the above numbered 1-4?

I still say and still firmly stand by my opinion that if the internal engine differences between the 67 RA, 68 RAI and 69 "RAIII" are different, the 69 RAIII is not a true Ram Air car, rather a 400 HO with 611 open air inlet. The 67 RA, 68 RAI and the 69 "RAIII were all D ports. 67 and 68 had significant internal engine changes made to modify performance, designate them internally and in performance and differentiate them from, in 67 a 400 car and in 68 a 400 HO car. If in 69, there were no internal engine changes mandated or made, all the 69 Firebird with 611 is, is a 400 HO with Ram Air pans.

How else can you conclude this other than a sales tool?

Is there a difference between a 68 HO and a 68 R/A I? YES
Is there a difference between a 67 RA and a 67 400 YES
Is there a difference between a 68 HO 69 HO and a 69 "RA III" (other than the addition of 611) NO

GM had to call it something with the addition of 611. Still NOT a true RAIII car. If that were the case, I will add ram air pans to my 68 HO and call it a "RA II.5" rarest of the rare.

Again, GM NEVER intended to release a RA III car for Firebird. Somehow, somewhere all hell broke loose with what to call it and how (from 20 years of reading on the subject).

QUOTE:
4. 348 400 R/A with 611 added in the billing history as a
seperate RPO


I haven't seen this....

Agreed that the most likely positioning for the 1969 Ram Air was a low budget package for buyers who were more interested in image than outright performance. If power was wanted, the Ram Air IV was available.

The engine was always the 'meat' of the package. The hood wasn't much performance... The 'ram air' engine was what was HOT.... The old timers always called it 'HOT IRON'.

The engine is the 400 HO. Did you read any of the bulletins above?

If you have one piece of engineering, production, order or marketing literature that has 348 described as anything other than 400 HO I would be most interested in seeing it.

Does anyone else have either a 400 HO or a 400 Ram Air from 1969 who'd like to share their invoices? Need plant code and at least the first 3 of the last 6 of the VIN to approximate a date.

As far as "hot engines" go, the '69 400 HO isn't up to the performance of its '68 predecessor. The RA IV was built right.

Actually, if you want to be literal about Pontiac's ram air terminology, the RA heads ram more air than the hood.... And we always like to compare divisions and the hood was always a separate deal with Camaros. The performance Camaros didn't rely exclusively on a hood for performance...

Ok, there was NO difference in performance, There is NO difference between a 68 HO, 69 HO and a 69 "RAIII" (was there?) other that in 69 the addition of 611 to RPO code 348 to turn a 69 HO into a "RA III". A 69 Firebird with 611 is not a true "Ram Air" car.

Not really much difference with any of the 400 cars until you get to the IV's.... And then the hood wasn't much of an added HP bonus at all.... All hype without much go.

Say WHAT?

The heads do not "ram air". The open hood was a sales ploy with minimal/marginal performance enhancement.

The heads in 67 and 68 were modified for a hotter cam, that is all.

Look at the head flow charts for the real ram air cars... There's some ramming of air going on. That's why Edelbrock mocked the IV's for their Peformer RPM heads...

I can take a set of 6X heads and port them to EXACTLY the head flow numbers of "Ram Air heads. It WAS NOT the head flow, it WAS the port design!!!

Round port RA cars RA II and RAIV were the only true "Ram Air" cars as designed due to the mandate of round ports and a high end drivetrain and the supporting compliments. A motor is an air pump. How well the motor sucks air into an inlet or orifice will determine how well a motor sucks air into. You can not, according to the statement highlighted above have "RAM AIR" because "of some ramming going on". How the hell do you ram something into an engine (air pump) when the motor is actually sucking? Get me a 200 pound bottle of pure oxygen hooked up to a sealed intake and I'll call it "Ram Air" "because of some ramming going on".

The 68 RAII had an overexhausted head design. The 1969 and 1970 RAIV is exactly the same head as the 68 with the exception of modifying (tweaking) the head to compensate for the 68 RAII overexhaust issue. The reason the RAII and RAIV worked as well as they did in comparison to the D port "RA" cars was the fact the RPM band was achieved much faster with the mandate of a 3.90 or 4.33 rear, round port heads and round port exhaust manifolds. The weak point in the RA II is the 9794234 cast iron intake.

Then you add, in 69, a RA III Trans Am and a RAIV Trans Am. Of course the 348 69 HO with 611 and call it a RAIII.

If that were the case, what internal engine differences are there between a 69 Trans Am RA III and a 69 Firebird HO? Are there any?

That's a matter of opinion. I can line up builders all over the US that will build you a 'Ram Air Pontiac' engine. Which has nothing to do with the hood. You have a right to your opinion and the other builders and I do also. Edelbrock is on my side, they will sell you Pontiac ram air heads... Edelbrock Performer RPM's... Just like the IV's(but better).