I found this 67 400 Firebird and it has no wing glass in the doors.
It has the 68 doors as well and the 68 fender extentions and lenses. Also has a 68 console with burlwood pattern. But it's for sure a 67' model based on the vin.

I ran the PHS on the car and it's indeed a real 400 4spd car.
It was originally a verdoro green car with black vinyl top. It's been repainted to a deep blue color. Still has the original black interior. The car has no engine with it, but does have a 4spd M-21 muncie (not original) The original rearend is still there or so he says but has 4.88 gears. It's suppose to be a 3.36 gear set-Non AC car. The X-filler panels are missing. The hood looks like it's had hood pins in it at one point in time and no sign of the original hood tach.
Still retains it's original rally guages.
I can buy this car for 7,500 and plan to buy it. I have a 68 WT 400 that came out of a 68 GTO with only 86k actual miles that I could put in so I could have it in running condition.

The owner say's it's very solid and has no rust other than some surface rust starting around driver side lower rear glass and passenger side lower fender has a couple small chips. The car was last painted in 1979 with Enron paint? (spelling) and looks like it has too much hardner or something because there is cracking evident in the driver side quarter. Either way I really like the car and am planning to buy it. Thought I would ask around to see what you guy's think. Maybe I'm paying too much?

Here are some pics.











[IMG]http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i279/kevin442

The reason it has no engine is the current owner bought it without one in 79' He installed a 454 later on and drove it for years.
He said he want's another 7,500 for the engine and I have no need for a chevy engine in my Poncho. So he knocked off some price and let me have it as a rolling car. Like I said I'm gonna try and put this car back as close to stock as possible, so a set of ralley II's are in order. I'm gonna watch for another 400 hood and hood tach. I don't know how I'm gonna repair the hood pin holes. Welding them up would probably warp the hood. Maybe lead them? A repaint will come later on, but it will definately need one. I'm not much for verdoro green though, Maybe a lighter shade of green. I kinda like the blue that's on it though.

Do you guy's think this is a fair price?

I think you have found a Frankenstein car!

As you can see the dash woodgrain is '67, but the console is '68.

I'd bet money that this car has been pieced together.

I own a third week of July '67 build ('67 vert), and a second week of September '67 build ('68 vert). They are both true individual cars.

I think you should look at the cowl and door jambs to see how they modified the '67 cowl to put '68 doors on. The hinges for the two years are different, so it is not a direct swap. Also the car does not have the astro vents, so the wing windows could not have been eliminated at the factory.

Front fenders and marker lights are easily swapped from '67 to '68. Look at the marker light wiring and see if they have been patched. '67 wires would have to be lengthened unless an entire new harness was added.

The paint cracking on the quarters are likely due to a bondo skim coat.

Price seems about $2500 - $3000 too high for this market. There is a true '67 400 convertible on this site for sale with engine for not much more.

But all of this is JMHO.

Good Luck!

I alway's thought the doors were a direct swap?
Pretty sure my uncle swapped his old 67 for 68 doors in the early 80's with no problem. But that's been a long time ago, so not sure.
No filler in the quarters, just paint cracked from very old paint job.(according to owner)
I'm not a convertible guy. I like hardtops better and 4spds are a plus.

I agree it's possibly been pieced together some time ago.
Since the owner say's he bought it this way in 79'
What exactly is the difference in the doors?

The '67 doors have different hinges and bolt pattern than '68-9.

The nuts are recessed into the cowl and are somewhat adjustable, so it wouldn't be too easy to swap without modyfing the cowl (or door jamb)

OK. So say the wing glass was just removed and the original doors are still installed. Is this possible? Maybe they took out the wing glass and installed a 68 glass?

Sorry, nope.

The '67 door sheetmetal is different than '68. There is a warp in the metal behind the '67 vent window. Also the top of the door panels for '67 are exposed, painted metal, whereas the door panels for '68 wrap up and over the tops of the doors. (similar for the rear seat side panels)

Also the interior glass tracks and guides are different between the years. (for the different glass)

you can get more car for that money now

It's got a '68 firewall, '67 rally gauges, '68 interior side panels and '67 seats. That VIN tag looks like it is barely attached? It would be interesting to see a pic of the dash top where the '68 vin goes.

I would take it to a body shop and have them make sure it isn't a clip job. Also, if the Imron (DuPont) had too much hardner, you'd see cracking in more places. I think there's bad body work under those cracks.

No need in taking it anywhere. I can check it for myself.
How in the world can you see that vin tag? I sure can't.
Wow! this car has more problems than I thought based on pics.
I can check it out in person in a couple weeks. Looked decent to me from the pics.

What's the difference in a 67 and 68 Firewall, guages, seats? I always thought the 67-68 were identical except for the vent windows, doors and fender extensions?
Of course the 68 had astro ventilation.

Thanks for all the help guys. So what would say this car is worth?
I really liked it, but I'm starting to get doubtful.
I already bought the PHS package with window sticker laminated to document it (wanted to be sure it was a real 400-4spd car)
Owner said he would pay for half if I decide not to take the car.

Where is the vin located on the car? I would think its a 68 with new rear quarters from a 67 installed, that may explain the cracking. Poke your head in the trunk and look about one inch down from the upper edge of the quarter panels as this is where most patch panels are welded onto.. Does the rear gas door have a small cut out for your finger to open it or does the emble protrude out for your finger to open it that way without the small finger pull in the door itself? Also look under the car at the rear end. Multi leaf or mono( single)leaf?

I personally would stay away from it as theres way too much mix and match with it and $7500 for a bastardised car just seems too much to me. As long as you know what you are getting into do what you feel.

Two words:

RUN AWAY!!!!

The VIN tag is mounted to low on the door jamb andwhere's the hand grip above the glove box?
I'm guessing this is a '67 that has been reconstructed with '68 parts.
As salmon38 said...RUN AWAY!

Yes, the VIN tag is in the correct location for a '67. I can't tell from the pictures if it is hanging loose or not. There are some shadows from the angle of the photo. But that would be a good place to look closely to see if the tag has been swapped out from a true 400 car, and this one passed along as legit. Look for modified rivits where the tag is mounted.

Also look at the data tag mounted to the fire wall behing the master cylinder. A true '67 400 will have 4F in the text.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a junkyard hull rebuilt by a PO.

The hand grip would only be there if the car originally had a deluxe interior. Can't tell from the info given if that was the case. Likely not.

I'm fairly sure that my VIN was mounted higher..I could be wrong as I have not seen my bird in several years. I thought that the center dash was pebble grain for standard interior...or was pebble grain "other GM product" and wood grain Firebird.
I'm comming to the realization I know about "some other product which can't be named" than I did about my 'bird.
In any event, this car has to many bewilderments.

According to the PHS, this car has standard interior and is a 67' model. You can see the quarters has no arrow head marker light.
I agree it's been pieced together. I thought as first sight that it may have been a late build or something (05B) May 2nd week.
Not late enough imo. And even if it were, I had not seen this before, but it's been awhile since I owned my last 68 OHC 3spd manual bird. I know enough about them to keep myself out of trouble, but I do have the knowledge of restoring cars. I've been doing it for over 20 years.
I called the owner a few minutes ago and he's gonna get pics of the body tag and vin and send them to me later. Also gonna check for the hidden vin below the windshield cowl panel and see if it's been a rebody. He say's there is signs of Verdoro green under some of the paint chips and in the door jambs.

I'm worried about modification done to the door jambs since someone told me the hinges are a different bolt pattern. If it's been hacked with up there, the deals off.
I wonder if there is a way someone took 68'doors and used 67 hinges and made it work without no cutting of any kind?

I really dig the car and I want it. He was asking 10k for this car last year and recently dropped the price to 8k. I got him down to 7,500. I spent all last night searching on Crazed list Nationwide for deals on 67-68 birds. A lot of decent cars out there, but they are all 326 or 350 cars and automatics. Everytime I found one that was a 4 speed, it was a already restored 400 car and it was big money 25k plus.
I don't want to spend that much, just looking for a driver, and I'm pretty set on a 4spd. car. I've got an engine and 4spd to install incase it don't have them, but then again I'd prefer a real 400 car to start with.

Thanks for all the help guys, keep it coming

Its solid, but pieced together...value is gone, not any $7500 car, rolling....as said before maybe $2500, you should be able to find a car in this shape but true, for $7500, or add some in and get a full car engine and all...market is the way now that more cars are available , for a bit less..
good luck with whatever your decision is.

Hey guys, I called the owner last night and he pulled the cowl panel and it indeed matches the vin. He checked the inner part of the quarters and no signs of ever being swapped or rusty.

The door jambs have the 67' hinges with 3 bolts. He said it looks factory. The rear springs have multiple leafs which would be correct for 68, but they could have been added.

The gas cap door has the indentation on the door not the tail panel, so also correct for 68'

My guess was this was a 68' car and someone put all the 67'stuff on it, but after seeing the cowl panel hidden vin and it matches the car's vin. No place in the windshield where it looks like it ever had a vin there. So everything turns up 67'
Also signs of very old verdoro green paint show up in the jambs and trunk.

This car is bastardized beyond my comprehension.. I'm at a loss for words.

Tell me something guys, is it possible to take 67'doors and pull the vent window, crank window, guts, chrome trim, window felts, etc. and install a 68' window and guts?

Other than that someone could add the fender extentions very easily and the console as well.

However, the owner also looked at the parking lights in the front for me to check for added wire with tape on them, so that they would reach for the 68' style. Since they run along the bottom of the front fender. Someone on here told me the wire would need to be longer. He says the wiring harness looks original with no breaks in it. Looks all stock to him...?????

I've pretty much nailed it down to the window swap on the doors if its possible. Let me know what you guys think.

This whole topic you've been telling us what "he said" and what "he thinks" I'll tell you what "he" is trying to do...sell a car! Walk away and find something documented. If you do buy it you will never really know what you have or what happened to that car over the last 40 plus years.

You obviously have some doubt...otherwise you would have pulled the trigger already.

Just my opinion...

Will someone please answer my question about the doors?
I already know everything else. The guy is being straight up about the car, he bought it this way. All he did was paint it and shove in a 454 cheby.

I did, quite a few posts back...

But you must not have believed me.

i would try offering him alot less due to the oddities about the car. Who knows, he may not want all the trouble to prove whats what and may bite. Good luck

There is no way to convert the doors from one year to another without major surgery of some kind. This has been discussed in detail on the Camaros.net forum and the pro-touring.com forum.

The '67 firewall has a round wiper motor hole and the actual motor is clocked toward the bottom right. '68-69 is an oval shaped hole and the motor is clocked as in the picture.

A '67 gas door has the finger catch on the door, a '68 is on the bird tail - opposite to what I believe you said.

Does the VIN have the original rosette rivets and is the trim tag on the firewall? Those would be two additional things to look into.

'67 gauges have the small diameter silver ring on the face and the clear lens is more conical. The '68 gauges have a chrome ring on the lens itself, the face is a steel blue color and the lens is less conical. The speedo on a '67 goes to 120 and on a '68 it goes to 160 mph.

It looks like it has a '67 sport wheel.

The center dash trim on a '67 is wood grain while on a '68, it's burlwood like the console in your pictures.

Could be that someone modified a set of '68 doors to fit on '67 hinges and then replaced the rear quarter interior trim panels to match the '68 interior door panels. If it was done right, I wouldn't worry about it, but $7,500 still seems high for the car.

Maybe a '68 style wiper motor was made to fit the firewall.

It's also got chevy motor mounts in it.

Didn't you guys read my description? The owner put in a 454 shortly after he bought the car in 79'
It came with no engine. He says the vin and body tag look factory and not messed with although, the hinges have 3 bolts and not 4. Like a 67' is suppose to, but it's got 68' doors.
Car freaks me out. I don't know what to think. It has the catch on the gas door and not the tail panel. I thought that was 68'
So I guess that part of the car is right.
Fender extentions could be changed easily and I guess before a repaint I could score some 67' doors if I was to do a swap.

Owner won't budge off 7,500. He's even starting to get bitter because of all the question's I keep asking.
I told him to stick the car up his a$$

Wise move.

Althought I was thinking you were going to be entertaining us here for quite some time with your discoveries and issues as you tried to bring Frankenstein back to life (if you had bought it).

I really like the car, but after talking to him yesterday he came with an attitude saying the car is what it is.
I was asking about the door jambs. Asking if everything looked ok or if any work had been done? By looking with the naked eye.

He came off rather smart and said I'm not taking off the doors.
I told him I never asked you to take off the doors. He said well I'm not. I again said I just asked if it looked like any work had been done to the hinges or jambs to make these doors work. Since I know they don't interchange between 67-68.

He was rather pissy. So I told him to blow a goat and hung the phone up. My only problem is I paid 98.00 for the PHS and window sticker laminated. I guess I could blow up a big picture of the car and frame it and put the PHS with it?
I offered it to him for half my money back 50 bucks, he didn't sound interested.

Very cool read.

I wouldn't pay 7500 either. I agree 2500-3000 at the most. The frankenstien look doesn't make it a bad car if or even an ugly car as long as its solid and it does look solid. 99.99% of the population wouldn't know or care if you said it was a 67 or 68.

Some interesting option from the pictures. Rear antena, wood wheel/tilt?, manual breaks and manual stearing.

With no engine or tranny your looking at a good chunk of change past the inital price to get this car back on the road. If you were looking for an investment then this is a pass.

The only thing is it come's with a M-21 muncie trans. Probably a chevy unit though, since he had a 454 in it.
I do however have a 68 RA II engine, complete carb to pan.
I could drop this thing in and a few day's later be driving it.

But due to his attitude, I'm just gonna move on for a real 400 preferable a 68' I like them better. I dig the arrow head on the quarters and no wing glass.

I did just find a 68' Mercury Cougar with 72k actual miles, window sticker, tons of docs, new paint, original interior. Very, very clean. Lot's of NOS parts already installed and new tire's, breaks, tuneup, etc. for only 6,500. Going to pick it up next weekend.

This car is a very nice #3 car and wouldn't take very much more to make a show car. However, it is just a standard cougar with no frills. Only pwr steering and that's it. Original hubcaps and all. Blue with Aqua interior. Beautiful car. It has a base 302 with 2brl carb and single exhaust.

I'll probably add a 4brl intake and carb at a later time with some duals. I'm not a big ford guy but always had a soft spot for the early Cats.

My question is this...If you do indeed have a $15k RA II engine, complete, carb to pan, why are you going to spend money and debate these members opinions on a hacked up car?

Unless you do not know a RA II engine (complete with correct components) is worth 15K.

Would be exactly like me putting a $2000 paint job on a numbers matching documented Ram Air First Gen... The shoe just doesn't fit.

I guess because I wanted too... The car came with no engine and I have a complete RAII engine and the car needed one. Thought I would stick it in so I could drive it. Plus, I spent the 100 bucks for the PHS and window sticker/plus fax....

But then I passed on the car due to, too many holes in the guys story.

I never ended up with the cat either. Got the cash ready and was headed up that weekend. Dude called me Friday night and told me he sold it to someone else that day. After I offered to pay a deposit 3 days before and he told me he was from the south and was a man of his word and would hold it upon that.

Go figure huh? Oh well, didn't need a ford on the place much anyhow. Much rather have a bird.

Money in hand always talks.

That's the reason why when I found a Craigslist ad for some upgraded wheels & tires for my Mustang last week, I negotiated for cash with the guy within a couple of hours and drove 80 miles one-way that night to go get them.