Howdy Boys,

I went out to the garage this evening -- stared at the Firebird -- and realized that I don't have the first stinking idea where I should be going from here.

It's moments like these that I realize I'm waaaaay over my head and probably should have stuck with model cars. Ok, feeling sorry for myself moment is over.

It's a 69. I have the subframe detached from the car, the motor and tranny are removed from the subframe. I basically have a subframe on front wheels.

The other thing I should say is that I'm finding a stunning lack of clarity in the various manuals that I have. I've got the Fisher Body Manual, the "assembly manual", and the Pontiac Service Manual (all on CD). Is it just me or is the "assembly manual" a bunch of hand-scrawled notes from 1969 that are impossible to understand?

Anyway...I want to get this frame cleaned up, sand-blasted, and restored, but am wondering do I leave the suspension/steering stuff all attached and go see the sand-blaster or should I *remove* everything first (control arms and whatnot) and do them as pieces?

And speaking of suspension removal, I feel totally over my head here. Can I safely start unbolting stuff or will the springs come shooting out like a missile?

Better yet, is there some place in one of these various books that actually describes how to remove this stuff? If so, can somebody point me to the relevant section?

Jeez, I just re-read all this and I sound like a stooge. That's mostly because I am. Just feeling overwhelmed.

I guess in summary, can somebody advise me on what I should do with this subframe with front wheels along my path to restoration?

Thanks. Sorry for the long post.
Tom

i am just starting my restoration on my firebird as well but from my experience on other cars i can tell you take it all apart first. there is no way for them to get to all the tight spots to blast them otherwise. and if your restoring it you are going to want all new bushings, rubber, etc anyways. to remove the springs use a spring compressor you can buy at the parts store, but be VERY careful, lots of energy stored in the springs. not a hard job but just be careful. other than the springs everything else just unbolts off. to take the spindle off the a-arms loosen the ball joint nuts and whack the spindle with a hammer where the ball joint goes through until it pops loose or buy a pickle fork at the parts store also. my suggestion, take lots of pictures and bag and tag everything. hope this helps, take some pics and put them on photobucket for us to see!!!

Perhaps what you need to do is ask yourself what you want to get out of this car? Do you want to be simply drive it around for fun? Do you want to make it a show car? Do you want it restored like new, or restomod it to your tastes? These are all valid questions that will help you on your quest.

The other thing to do is to not look at the whole project, but look at it in stages. Disassembly, restoring the parts, reassembly, etc. A lot of people who have never restored cars get into trouble when they freely start taking things apart, then realize they don't have the knowledge or desire to put it all back together. Many people will go slowly and start with a driver car and slowly restore different areas while still being able to drive the car.

As far as what steps..well.. subframe restoration, then suspension, sheet metal work, brakes, brake lines and fuel lines, electrical, body work, engine, transmission, etc.

There are several good books you can buy that will go through the different steps and lead you through the process:

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q...ed=0CFEQ8wIwAA#

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?h...ed=0CHMQ8wIwAw#

Read, take your time, write down notes and steps, and remember to bag and label all your parts as you go along.

Finally, try to have fun with it. Restoring a car is supposed to be fun and relaxing, not stressful. btw: Dont be afraid to talk to others who have restored cars and get advice, or have them help you as you go through it all...

Good luck!

RE: One issue that you mention specifically, front suspension replacement -

You have already ventured down a path that will make that task a bit more difficult. You have removed the subframe with the suspension still attached.

Many of us have found front spring removal and replacement a tad easier when you have weight of the car on the control arms.

However, there are several other tasks you need to evaluate with your car as disassembled as it is:

Brake and Fuel line refurbish or replace

Floor pan/trunk pan clean/repaint or replace as necessary.

Firewall clean up and repaint.

I also recommend spending A LOT of time on this site going through the Tech sections. There is a lot of history here of people doing restorations on these cars and the lessons they have learned the hard way.

as said abv ,= VERY IMPORTANT...because everybody takes things apart ,thinking "I remember where this goes"...then it takes longer than expected and you forget...plus you wont find everything...if its bagged, marked you know what it is and where it goes (pics help here)
I`d suggest , not only being a member here and ask, but see if you can join a local group....preferrably FGFs, but for 'general' info, other car clubs may work too....but look for local FGFers, maybe find them on here!??

but also , its important to know what you want out of this car...dont go way overboard on your first car....be prepared it will take lots longer than you expect! if you think 6 mo it will be 18, if you think 2 yrs it will be 5-6 most likely. Life happens in the middle of it!

mine was in driveable condition...had been 'restored' 7 yrs before ,but trashed out since...I did a 'running resto' on it , thought it would be 6 months...but took 6 yrs, BUT I had it driveable all that time ,so I could enjoy it 'during'....

I forgot one other item I leaned about these processes:

SET UP A SEQUENCE OF OPERATIONS. I used an Excel spreadsheet to create a checklist.

Do you have a budget? Are you prepared to spend more than the car is worth? It's not cheap getting these back on the road.
If you're passionate about this project and have funding to back it you'll do fine. The first several months can be frustrating learning what you need, where things go, sourcing parts and information books, but in the end all comes together.

Many thanks for the responses, fellas. All good advice. I'll definitely pick up those books.

To aid in my future posts, please allow me to explain my "plans" and relate some of my experience.

I've taken up car restoration as a hobby pretty late in life. Kids are grown and off to college (oh god is that expensive). I am not the least mechanically inclined person you'll meet, but I don't have a bunch of hands-on experience with this stuff.

I'm a software engineer by trade (read geek) but have always loved muscle cars. Drove a 69 Camaro back in the 70's and have always particularly loved the Camaro/Firebird look.

I bought Betty thinking she'd be a pretty easy restoration. Solid body, floors, etc. My intent was to basically strip 'her down, replace/restore/clean as necessary, then put 'er all back together. Simple plan, often difficult to implement.

As far as budget? I realize this isn't a financial investment. Well, then again, it's right up there with my house at this point...both losing money but I digress. It's a hobby. It is supposed to be fun and I need to work on the "fun" part. I fully expect my time to be worth $0.0000001 per hour when this is all said and done. I have allocated $8000 for the restoration.

At this point, the original 350/350 are working, but I haven't decided if they're staying. I have decided on a power front disc brake conversion (currently 4 drum), replacing all the soft bits in the suspension, the full interior, rewiring, and generally detailing/painting all metal surfaces. Will most likely go with a 4 speed overdrive tranny.

There's so much to this...I hope I'm not boring you all.

I picked up a 400 hood real cheap and love the look. I'm leaning toward a "400 homage" resto-mod with hood tach. Bought a 4bbl manifold at a swap meet which will go on the 350 or a motor TBD.

I'm into this car for about $300 plus purchase price ($5K) and am not even looking at my time as a cost. I hope this info helps set some perspective.

At this point, I find the most frustrating aspect is just not having any "wisdom" on how to go about things. Like removing the suspension with the weight in place. What the hell is a pickle fork? That kind of stuff. It's like I'm Helen Keller, bumping into all the furniture in the room. I guess that's just the way it has to be the first time.

Anyway, I really do appreciate the responses. I hope I won't wear out my welcome. Have a good day all.

Tom

Tom, $8000 "may" do it if you do EVERYTHING yourself...imo.
I paid $8000 for a running car, a 16 yr old drove it to school, trashed it...
I have since painted it ,replaced many parts , had some done by others...now have about $26 k in it.....its not 'perfect' , but a nice car...its also a former 350 car, PO had replaced engine to a 400, I kept making it look like 400, hood ,emblems etc...my suspicion though is that you`ll end up spending an amount closer to $16k than the $8k......I started my resto on this as kids were in college too, but figured I could do it as they had also been in private HS`s before...
good luck to you!

"Pickle fork" is slang for ball joint separator.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accesso...arator/_/N-264r

smiling cause I was in the same boat as you 3 years ago.
Sounds like you're in a good position to begin this hooby. Hardest part for us was the first 6 months learning. Do searches on this forum with questions (most topics have been covered and answered before) read the parts books as it helps, take lots of pictures as you dissassemble. Vikki has a real good site with technical information here: http://thefirstgensite.com/
Probably need to double that budget #. Once you get into it you'll change your mind on things like oh.. I gotta go back and do that dash because it's got a crack.. stuff like that. It all adds up.
Use this site as a support group.. we all had times of discouragement and the folks here can give you that lift.
Google things like "pickle fork" wikipeda explains it all.
Heck, one of my first posts was asking where the water pump inlets/outlets were. Just enjoy the journey!

Here is what I used to remove the tie rod ball joints.

PICKLE FORK

I took my entire frame apart when it was off the car. I did not need a spring compressor to do it.

1) take off steering linkage connecting to the steering box
use "pickel fork" and large hammer or sledge hammer
2) remove remainder of the linkage from frame
3) remove lower A frame
loosen bolt on lower ball joint (1/2")
use p fork again to disconnect ball joint
it will pop out but not all the way because the nut is still on
loosen nut carefully and A frame will pop down
it may get hooked up on your drum, just tap it out
keep yourself clear of the frame coming out
4) take 4' steel wrecking bar to pry out springs

The rest is of the ball joints come out much the same way.

If you have trouble breaking the ball joints out with pickle fork use heat from propane touch to heat collar that the ball joint goes into. Heat expands the metal thus making it easier to pop out.

You also may want to consider buying the front end kit from Harbor Freight. Has all the pullers you will need and they can be pulled with no damage. I was able to replace only the boots with no damage to any of the joints. Its pretty cheap and works well. Also I have a pickle fork that attaches to my impact hammer, really works well.

As far as pics go...if you don't have one, go buy a digital camera and take lots of pics of parts before removal with orientation and more after removal because chances are you may or may not remember where it goes or how it goes on. Also you might want to think about backing up all your pics on a photo sharing site because if your hard drive goes down you'll lose all your pics. Then you're really screwed.

Finding someone close by that has a similar car that is put together that you can go and look at helps alot as well when you start putting thing back together.

Don't want to scare you but your $8K budget will get everything taken apart and cleaned up. Better start saving for when you start putting things back together. Of course it depends on how deep you want to go. It's a very slippery slope after you start to take things apart. Everything need to be cleaned and painted. Sometimes I work all day in the garage taking one piece off, cleaning, rust inhibiting and painting before I can put it back on.

Don't forget that your neighborhood auto parts places will let you "borrow" specialised tools like those needed for old school suspension systems.

The only drawback to this is how beat-up those tools are when you get them.

PS, my budget for my pretty much rust free coupe that spent its entire life (prior to my purchase) in California is...


...about $42K


But temper that figure with such upgrades as aftermarket front seats, about $6K for a professionally built almost 500 hp 455 engine, $700 for my rare HD nodular 4-pinion 10 bolt rear end, and the occasional "cool, gotta have it" part like $600 billet aluminum hood hinges and about the same $$$ for a Rodney Red aluminum radiator...

Being a "Geek" also I vote for spread sheet also think of it as ladder logic. It all went together in a process take lots of pics write notes back them up, I use 2 different drives and have 3G of pics. Mine was a good barn find driver that just needed a few things... Clean it paint it and start at the top of the program. Easy right? It's just the bugs that get in the way.

Dang, my budget of $8K is starting to sound pretty silly. I guess we'll just have to see how this goes. I can totally understand how things could "creep", but dang $42K? Crap!

One step at a time for this geek...I just don't have the knowledge to even make a list...so I'll just attack things as they make sense. Right now, I'll be happy if I can get the suspension removed so I can clean up the subframe and re-assemble with restored bits.

Thanks for all the thoughts. My outlook has improved with these inputs and I'm ready to spend some more time with Betty this weekend.

Also bare in mind that amount is spread over 13 years of working on this car. That also includes misc garage supplies like specialty tools, sand paper, and various cans of spray paint and auto fluids,

I drove it once when considering the purchase, a 2nd time to get it to the DMV for registration and then it came apart in 1998.

And despite "rust free" the car wears NOS front fenders ($900 when you could still get them from GM) and a new passenger door skin due to too much bondo on the original parts. Under the hood, there is a total of 2 parts I have NOT replaced - 1 inner fender and the aftermarket carb that was already there. I also replaced every single wiring harness as old brittle wiring is a hazard.

I paid 5k for our bird and am probably about 18 in it right now doing my own paint. I had done a couple of vehicles before this one but never as deep of a restoration as this one. 8k may be a little light but if you keep the existing drive train you can probably end up with a decent driver for that as long as you don't go crazy with paint. You will run into problems along the way but don't let them discourage you. This place is a wealth of knowledge and I would have never ended up with as nice of a car without the help of a bunch of these folks. As stated before it will take 3 - 4 times longer than you originally thought and for most of us I don't think they are ever really "done". Good luck. LOTS of pics

make it roadworthy first, brakes, suspension , engine....then on to body...then top and interior...this way you can drive it "during"...or at least most of the time, with exception of taking body apart....