Hi all,

First let me say I'm new to the forums and this website. I recently acquired a '68 Firebird 400 from my father. He restored it about 25 years ago and several weeks ago passed it on to me! The car was shipped from PA to MO and I'm on the hunt for gas. He put some 110 octane in it before shipping it out here. Runs great! So now I have a few questions for all of you...

I found a VP Racing Fuels distributor close to where I live. Pricey fuel but they make some street legal stuff for vintage cars. Is this my best option?

I found some gas stations that sell 93 octane with zero ethanol. Is this my best option? If so, I assume I should add a lead additive to the tank? Motor Medic lead substitute...is this good stuff? Should I also add an octane booster? If so, what do you recommend?

Or....do I by some good VP fuel and cut it with the 93 octane from the pump? Do I still need to add the lead substitute or will there be enough in the VP leaded fuel to accommodate the 93 octane unleaded?

I want to run what's good for the motor but safe for my wallet at the same time.

Thanks for any help you all can provide!

If your wallet levels are of concern...I would run some of the 93 w/ ethanol and see if it detonates. if so, second step would be try octane booster/lead additive (not my personal favorite). Last option would be back off timing or run racing gas.

Get ethanol free gas if at all possible.

I can't comment on the lead additive as I have no experience with it.

I run 92 ethanol free with no problems. I rebuilt my 400 engine back to stock compression.
Ethanol deterioration during storage can be expensive.

I never use ethanol in anything if at all possible.

I would try the 93 ethanol-free and see if it works. You could always cut it with some higher octane stuff. Couple of gallons to a tankful until you find the sweet spot. Ask your father if he remembers during the rebuild if they installed hardened seats when the did the valve job. Chances are you don't need lead substitute. I don't know but my guess is octane boost that you buy is probably just snake oil and probably won't help much unless you use a couple of gallons per tank.

Thanks all for the replies. I ended up getting 5 gallons of leaded VP110 and mixing it with 10 gallons of 93 unleaded without ethanol. I was told there would be enough lead in the VP110 to cut it like that. Seems to be running just fine!

Now it's time to find a small project to get started on!

x10 !!!!!!

We have no choice in NE Illinois. Either I drive to Wisconsin or burn 10% corn squeezins.
See: Buy Real Gas

I feel for ya Jim. I used to have issues with EVERYTHING I used with the corn crap in it. Switched to non-ethanol about six or seven years back, any NO ISSUES with anything since. We are lucky as 95% of the stations in MN now carry non-eth fuel. The station Owners figured out there was an enormous demand for it, even though we live in the middle of the corn belt! (go figure!)

Still wondering why we need to pay 50 cents more per gallon to NOT put something in it! Grrr!

I can only get 85% in NH. I always use 91-93 octane with Redline Lead Additive.

I still have a couple bottles of the 1oz treats 10 gallons. They have switched the concentration now. The new 12oz bottle only does 25 gallons.

If you want my opinion on the ethanol blend fuels read the post below. If you have not choice, and want to make your car more robust to the negative effects of the ethanol (exaggerated by most of our cars being periodic drivers), you can upgrade the fuel tank and lines to stainless steel, replace your fuel pump, rubber fuel hoses to a modern rubber compound material and then re-jet the carb accordingly. At that point the car will be more robust to the fuel as it sits in the system, but it will not prevent the damage due to phase separation which is a real concern. This is what can lead to a low octane mixture or even pure water being sent to the engine.

Also, be aware that not every state has laws stating that the gas station has to even tell you if there is ethanol in the pump. Some states will have to tell if its there, and others how much is in it.


https://firstgenfirebird.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=259207&page=1

I think this topic gets way over rated and into territory it doesn't need to be in. If you stick with the fuel recommendations in the manual and get super unleaded for the 400 and mid grade for the 350 you're good! Done! Octane boosters and additives are for race purposes not street applications. It your car is pinging check your timing.

I've used 91 octane non-ox fuel in both of my 400 cars plus my 350 cars for the past six years, all without pinging or detonation issues. No other additives at all.

I also have the same question on fuel, plus what type of oil to use, and what is best for storage.

Original 400 Motor (68)

I have mainly used 87 octane fuel and have had no issues. I have been told to use super octane (highest level available at stations) but I often forget that I should be doing that, thus I don't put it in the tank. Now that I have read this topic, I will become more diligent and put the highest rated octane available at the pump into the tank.

Regarding engine oil: Is it best to use the manufacturers spec's for oil grade or is there something that works better?

Regarding storage: My car gets stored for the winter (I'm in Canada) from October to April. Is there anything specific I should be doing to store it. I usually don't do anything other than drive it to the storage facility, park it, and disconnect the battery. The storage facility is indoors and heated to a temp that is moderately cool, about 50'F.

The most important thing about oil is to add ZDDP. That is the chemical that has been taken out of motor oils because is was supposedly contaminating the planet. ZDDP protects older engines that have not been upgraded with hardened valve seats.

If your engine is original and has not been rebuilt (specifically hardened seats) then you should ALWAYS be adding ZDDP with each oil change.

Regarding oil brands or products to use, everyone will have their opinion. Personally I have stuck with Valvoline (non synthetic) my entire driving life and have never had an oil related issue in any vehicle I have owned. Others use racing oil, others use synthetic, the list goes on and on.

As far as storage, the 50 degrees (hopefully dry, not humid) sounds great. If you have a way to start and run the vehicle once a month and bring her up to operating temperature, you will have a whole lot less issues with seals drying up and leaking.

I also put a dose of sea foam in with the last couple of fill ups for the season. And NEVER use ethanol fuel for over winter storage. (never use it if at all possible all year round)

Great info. How much ZDDP is required for an oil change and how much Sea Foam do you put in per a full tank of gas?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-ZDDPlus-ZDDP-...=item51a08bc641

Here is where I buy mine, but local auto stores generally stock it a s well.

One small bottle per oil change.

The Sea Foam can has a ratio on it, but I think it's about half a can per tank of gas (if my memory is correct)

I don't think extra will hurt anything.

And try to fill the tank totally full to not leave a void for condensation to form inside. But at 50 degrees, that probably won't be an issue.

I found this very interesting article on making your own ethanol free gas.

http://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14679

Cool! Reading all the comments at the end were pretty funny. The key one I focused on was "why not just buy non-Ox and spend your xtra time riding"?

I was surprised by how many areas of the Country did not have non-Ox available. You would think up here in corn-country, that only ethanol would be available. I guess the farmers are laughing all the way to the bank...?

X2 with Daryl and 68tpls400 (greg's) input:

If the fuel in your tank likes water with the current oxygenated fuels, it doesn't belong in my gas tank, period! I recently finished a boat restoration and when I dumped the fuel out of the tank, I saw the phase separation at ~50/50 to fuel, to ethanol and water. Fortunately I never attempted to start the boat but it does have a water separator filter as well , but would have been overwhelmed. Ethanol is truly the Devil in my opinion. I have replaced all lines with the current coast guard rated soft-line products but will not run the ethanol crap.

I have to travel ~30 miles to get the non-ethanol, unleaded 91 octane for my mower and lawn care power tools.... ok, the car as well but is says recreational fuel so I don't advertise. I can get race gas for $6.99 a gallon (with 115 octane and lead up the road 15 mi or so) so the 1968 gets a run to the race gas pump once a year just for fun (also says off-road fuel on the pump :~).

Funny story, was at the race gas pump 15 mi north and west of the house, and was directly filling the Firebird a year ago and the local Village police squad pulls pull up to check out the car, didn't give a rats-rear end about the fuel was going into the tank.

Kevin-

[u][/u]

I've got an original engine and only run chevron 94 octane (Highest available) with no ethanol. and it runs great. I have not heard of the oil additive though. I'll have to see if I can find it. Will stores know it by ZDDP?

I've been using this one for a few years now: http://zddplus.com/
The zinc and phosphorus that was in oil has been phased down to low levels because the EPA thinks it harms catalytic converters. Our flat tappet engines need it to keep down the wear from the lifters and cam lobes.
Have not seen it in retail stores. Amazon, EBay, and some of the Pontiac vendors have carried it.

Our local Auto Zone stores carry it. But it is about twice the price you can find on line.

Chevron here sells 94 Octane no Ethanol. Thats what I use. I have also noticed our premium has none either, mid grade 5% and low grade 10%

Same problem here, in the NW Chicago Suburbs. Impossible to avoid ethanol.

I run at minimum 93 oct. I have a 428.

Attached is a link to a non-ethanol gas web-site that goes state by state. Time for the Farmers to get back to the business of making feed for livestock (sorry if I offended the Farmers that relay on the subsidies, probably all of them). Corn squeezing's (ethanol) has proven no benifit to the environment, and are definitely not good for gasoline powered engine components designed for pure gas, period.

It takes more energy (increased carbon foot-print that is not discussed openly) to produce this adative to supplement our burning of it rather than pure gas, so what is the point of blending it. Should also point out that the vehicle performance/mileage goes down which also adds to the carbon foot print. Time to cut bait on this 2006 Congress requirement, just another Farm-aid on the books that does not serve the true and intended purpose.

JMHO,

Kevin-

http://pure-gas.org/

Correct
I had nothing but problems with the junk gas.
Everyone needs to check their vacuum hoses and rubber plugs. They don't last long with the ethanol gas.

Closet station to me is 45 minutes away, but its a marina...
Next is 1.5 hrs away.

Have to replace carb seals/gaskets on all my old lawn mowers, snow blower, tiller nearly every year.
Be nice if companies would upgrade them to ethanol resistant materials.

Or just get rid of the crap.
Eat food, burn gas.

Not sure if true or not but it makes sense, when the price of gas falls below $2.50/gal. it costs more to add the ethanol so when gas is cheap (?) what you are getting is pure gasoline.
I have noticed that my van always seems to get better mileage when the price of fuel is low.

By Federal law, they cannot do that. The ethanol subsidies (and additions) go on no matter what.

I have noticed that my van always seems to get better mileage when the price of fuel is low. [/quote]

I used to notice in my old truck that I got better mileage without ethanol. My buddy tried it with his truck last month, ran ethanol and then no ethanol. He says no difference in mileage on his truck. Anyone else go down this path before?

I always got 2-5 MPG better in my Grand Prix with ethanol free gas. And it ran 150% better without as well.

Haven't checked it on my Durango. Now that non-ox fell to $2.35 per gallon, I might try.

Haven't used corn crap in any of my toys for the past eight years. Now non-ox is readily available in all the pumps in my town.

Funny how it costs 'more' to 'not' put something in... Grrrr!

I could run my 400 with milled 5C heads (to 93 cc) on "regular" gas, used the one "up to 10% ethanol...ran great (car now sold)

I see the Gub'ment is on the warpath again...

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/feds-push-more-ethanol-into-gasoline-but-will-164706945.html

I love reading all the comments the best. Some real rocket scientists out there...

And there are the summer and winter blends

After rereading Hank's post and comparing it to the web article I posted a couple of spots back, I even more doubt this is the case. The mandate is a 'total ethanol quantity' that 'must' be used each year. It sounds like it is getting harder and harder to use this much product (ethanol), so refiners are mixing more and more into the fuel supply. So they are up against the wall to start blending even more than 10% stated on the pumps. The only way they would provide less ethanol in the blend would be if they already used their quota. (which sounds like almost impossible). Although I guess they could thumb their nose at the EPA and dump the 'xtra' ethanol out the back of the refinery lawn, but somehow I doubt that too.

What isn't clear to me is how each refiner across the Country tracks what has been used and who's using more or less compared to each other. I would think much more fuel is sold on the east and west coast compared to the Midwest? Although most of the refineries are near the gulf coast?

It's all a shell game to me, with Big Brother somehow looking over their shoulder. I do know each year there is a bigger and bigger demand for pure gasoline in the Midwest. (funny as that's where most of the ethanol is coming from)

Same here, Jarret. We run the highest octane and no E in the gas. We are blessed to have a local BEACH OIL facility here and you can get the best gas available 24/7. On Highway 76 just north of Nashville.

Just read last week somewhere that "some country or state" is getting rid of E85, and cars to run on it wont be produced anymore....maybe a good start, as they found out (finally) that its not good, for cars or environment.