I am looking at buying a "project" 68 Firebird Convertible. It has no engine, no tranny, and no left and right front fenders. I understand it is a project.
The seller is in another state and said I can tell everything I need from the first 8 numbers of VIN and he gave those to me and from research I can see that it was a V8 but how can I tell if it was a 400 v8 or a 350 v8?
He only gave me first 8 digits of the vin and they are: 223678U1 (from research online that last 1 says it was a v8 but how can I tell if it was a 400?
As I was typing this I think I figured it out. I will go ahead and post in case anybody thinks I am wrong. I looked at 68 specs online and saw that the only other v8 engine was a 350. Since I know this car has a clutch pedal then I know it was manual and the 350 manual had a column shifter it looks like and I know this one has a stick shift. So therefore I know it was a 400 correct. Now I don't know if this was a 3 speed or 4 speed manual though. Any thoughts out there.
Thanks so much

First, I would be cautious if the seller says that the first eight VIN digits tell you everything. That said, the sure way to tell what it was is to get the get the Pontiac Historical Services (PHS) build record but that is $75 and you will need the full VIN. http://www.phs-online.com/order.htm

Note that there are body differences on 400's. However, over 49 years some of those could be changed or missing.
'68 400's got a different hood with hood scoops and "400" emblems. They also had "400" emblems on the trunk lid and a Pontiac arrow on the middle of the front bumper. 400s and AC equipped '68s got upper and lower steel baffles and rubber fillers between the grill and radiator to direct in more cooling air. 400s also received decorative chrome "hockey sticks" on the plastic grills.

Jim,

Thanks so much. Is there a way I can see pictures of your 68? I might be able to understand more if I saw the pictures. Let me know if you already have them online or in a video or something. If easier to email my email is mackay@linecreekcapital.com I really appreciate your help.
Thanks

I'll look for and post some pictures of my car tomorrow that show those 400 features. The Photobucket policy change eliminated all my years of online photos.

You will need the rest of the VIN to order PHS. (and determine how your car was built at the factory)

All other body changes could be done to mask a 350 to 400 change, and without PHS, you would not be able to tell.

The manual shift means nothing. You could order a 350 - 4 speed back in '68. (floor mounted)

If the Seller will not release the rest of the numbers, I'd look elsewhere to purchase a project.

Better yet, you should get a photo of the VIN just so numbers are not verbally given wrong.

Censorship! AAARRGGG!

As we have mentioned, having these 400 (and AC) features are not conclusive if there has been an attempt to make the car look like a 400. Not having any of them, or any of the holes for the emblems, however, may indicate either it was not a 400 or it has had some major part's replacements and stripping. Again beware of the lack of a full VIN and maybe also check the full VIN against DMV, history, and PHS.

1. Rubber Pontiac logo arrow emblem and two holes in the bumper.
2. Chromed "hockey sticks" on the plastic grills.
3. 400 hood with scoops and 400 emblem.
4. Upper steel baffles aka X-panels (w/400 or AC)
5. oops I missed a number.
6. Lower steel baffle aka air dam (w/400 or AC)
7. 400 emblem on the trunk lid and holes in the lid.
8. Rubber fillers aka masticated fillers on the radiator support (w/400 or AC)

It depends on whether the seller is pricing it like a real 400 car and whether you want an original 400 car. Otherwise if it looks decent and a good price, go for it. The fact that the seller isn’t providing PHS documentation means he’s not a Pontiac guy and may not even know what he has.

Question is why does it matter if the motor is gone? If it was originally a 350 2bbl 3 speed, is that the way you will put it back? What's the point unless it's the original motor to the car. I wouldn't get too caught up in what it once was. If you can get it for what you consider a good price, buy it and build it the way you want and don't look back.

I have to say for the record I have a '68 Firebird 350 without AC and the PHS docs to back it up that match everything.
It has #6 & #8 - 99% sure original items based on the clips, rust and paint (car had never been restored and sat for about 30yrs).

1. Rubber Pontiac logo arrow emblem and two holes in the bumper.
2. Chromed "hockey sticks" on the plastic grills.
3. 400 hood with scoops and 400 emblem.
4. Upper steel baffles aka X-panels (w/400 or AC)
5. oops I missed a number.
6. Lower steel baffle aka air dam (w/400 or AC)
7. 400 emblem on the trunk lid and holes in the lid.
8. Rubber fillers aka masticated fillers on the radiator support (w/400 or AC)

For whatever emotional reason, I think it’s much cooler to have an original 400 car even with the drivetrain gone

#6 & #8 also came with manual trans.

But I agree with your statement as well. My wife's '68 350 with auto came with #6 and #8. First one I ever saw like that.

Spellbound,

Interesting. I learn something new every day. A couple things I can always be sure of with these cars; there are few absolutes and I'm often wrong.

Sure is a clean 68 Jim!

Yup, and he bought it NEW!

Real close to it Sleddog. I am the first owner after the ordering dealer and it is my first car. It was a corporate lease by the dealer to a company my Dad worked for. I bought it when it was 15 months old and had been sitting for a while. I drove it as my daily driver for twelve years then retired it.

In other words; by calculation 97.5% of its life I have been on the title. 2.5% the ordering Pontiac dealer held it.

Jim,
That's an awesome story for any bird- and a400 HO to boot! I still sum that up by saying you are the first real owner of that beauty. I hope to make it over there again next year, if I do I will let you know- it would be good to get together if you can.

Well I really appreciate all your help. Got a great deal I think (paid $3k) and it is a 68 Pontiac Firebird 400 convertible (manual transmission on the floor based on the hole in the middle) and the 400 emblems on the original hood. I will go get that history and get back to you all.

Nice job!

Resurrecting this, but #8... the " masticated fillers on the radiator support"
I need these. Mine are shot.... I cannot find them! Any suggestions?

NEVERMIND! Ames has them! www.amesperf.com
part# FP454

Sometimes knowing what it "is" or in many cases "was" can be a burden. You then feel obligated to be true to that. Each owner makes a decision regarding originality and that can be a really hard choice. FOR ME... there is a weight I feel that says each time I veer off the path of originality i'm taking a little bit of history with me. You just need to be at peace with the choice you make. I have learned to be a champion of the 350 cause. Like fighting for an endangered species. But man am I tempted by a 400 or God forbid a 455! And I love the looks of the 400 hood!! I also like spoilers. I know... but I do. But alas I am married to a 350 (with no spoiler) and I am committed to that relationship. LOL

I completely agree u-conn. Having had many first gen birds starting out in the 80s as built meant little to me although whatever went into the car for upgrades had to be Pontiac. But after an ugly divorce and loosing my 7 vert and 8 hardtop I jumped out of the game for about 12 years or so and in 18 picked up a 8 vert 350 auto 1 legger and the first thoughts I had was stuffing in the 455 I had on a stand in the garage and the rebuilt 71 455 ho heads and intake in the cellar. but after getting it running ( it sat for 26 years on a cement floor in a barn) and chasing all the numbers down I realized what i had was a true 60.000 mile all numbers matching ( except the alternator) 68 a/c vert. After some soul searching and remembering all the 350 and 6 cyl engines i had evicted I came to the conclusion that after this car had evaded punks like me for over 50 years it would be sacrilegious at this point to gut it. Just to make sure I wasn't tempted I sold my Pontiac performance parts to a friend and have never looked back.