The first set I had would just not hold oil. Had to set the rockers about ever hour of operation. Got a new set and they worked well for a few thousand miles, now they are failing. The guy that owns the shop I dyno'd the engine at, told me they quit using them as they had the same trouble. Anyone know if the retro fit roller lifters sold by Comp are made in the same factory that makes the Lunati, Johnson or crower retro fit roller lifters? Any suggestions on a brand that is known not to be made by the same folks who make the Comp stuff?
For the engine builders, If I replace the hydraulic rollers with solid rollers would I have to get a solid roller camshaft or could I use the hydraulic roller shaft already in the engine? I have the springs, keepers etc that will handle a more aggressive cam/lifter combo. Just don't know about the shaft. Can't see why not but I've been wrong many times before.
Yes, you can use solid liftters on hyd cams. But, you need to remember that you'll have to set 'em just as you would if the cam was solid. In other words you can't put any preload on the solid lifters. They must be set with some lash.
But, many of the solid cam lobes are too aggressive for use with hyd lifters. The solid lobes have a different design than the hyd lobes.
Don't know who makes the comp lifters. But, Paul Carter posted on the PY site that the comp lifters are the only ones that have the oil band in the correct location for a Pontiac. He builds lots of Pontiac engines. He said that all the other HR lifters he's seen are Chevy lifters, with Pontiac link bars, and the oil band is about 1/4" too low. He just grinds a simple groove down from the lifter bore oil hole 1/4". This allows the Chevy lifters to oil properly in Pontiac engines. He mentions using Hylift Johnson lifters.
More about the CC lifters. This has been discussed a lot @ PY. According to the info in this thread, those old CC 857-16 lifters, which had so many failures were replaced, maybe last year, with better quality lifters. On the box, the part # is 857M-16 The CC tech said they were made by Shaver, which I never heard of. According to what I can find, CC still uses the 857-16 part #. But, the M is included in the part # on the box.
OK, I just got this info off the PY forum, from a guy who has a contact who works at Comp Cams. It seems that most of the CC Pontiac HR lifters are now made by Shaver, and they are good quality. And, they are said to be the only HR lifters with the higher Pontiac oil band. All others are said to be Chevy lifters, with Pontiac link bars.
That's the good news. The bad news is that when they are out of Shaver lifters, they put Morel lifters in the box. The Morels are good lifters. They just don't have the high oil band. So, I don't know for sure which lifters you'll get in the box you order.
Guys have been using Chevy roller lifters in Pontiacs for years. Many have experienced no problems. But, as mentioned, at least one Pontiac engine builder grinds a 1/4" groove to connect the lifter bore oil hole with the lifter oil band. Some feel this is not necessary. I'm not an engine builder. So I don't know.
If I was going to buy some HR lifters today, I'd try to find some of the Shaver made Comp Cams lifters.
But, if you can proove that your failed lifters are the Shaver made ones, then I wouldn't blame you for not trying another set.
Friend had issue's with 3 different brands of hydraulic rollers that sounded like a sewing machine. After all the wasted money he could have built a whole other short block.
Thanks for the replies, I'm worried about buying more lifters and getting the same junk as well. Butler has a bit about differences in the Chev Pontiac lifters. I'll try to post it. Did a bit more reading on using the hydraulic cam and solid lifters, should be ok but. Setting the required lash will shorten the duration. By the time the lobe has moved enough to take up the clearance the crank could move up to seven degrees. that would have my intake opening later and closing earlier. As I am on the edge of detonation as it is I don't want the increase in dynamic compression ratio. I have cranking cylinder pressures of 212 PSI now and don't want to increase any.
So it's change the camshaft and lifters or take a chance and buy new hydraulic rollers. Don't want/ wont buy Comp, two sets is enough.You should see what our Olds brethren are writing about comp on their sites. The Comp part number for Pontiac roller lifters is the same as the Olds number. Same lifters in olds and Pontiac. But what brand? I'll try giving butler a call and see what they recommend.
If I went with the solid lifters I'd also have to get oil restricting pushrods, I don't know about springs yet. With the cam I have now probably not but if I went to a solid roller camshaft I might.
Got an answer from Butler: I could use the cam I have now and run solids with a very tight lash, would still change the duration; Says Crower and Johnson are the same; Comp used to be made by Johnson but have changed supplier, says the lifters are still the same though; Says Lunatis and Howards are made by Morrell, but there's not much difference in any of them.
That last statement didn't give me much confidence.
Went to the Morrell site and found a few lifters for Pontiac. Anyone have a couple of grand for some lifters? They have street lifters for about as much as the Comps are. The lifters are 0.842" dia but say require block bushing, I don't get it.
The problem is the location of the oil band on the lifter. Forgot if it was at full lift or on the base circle but there is a problem with it bleeding down because the oil band is not receiving oil pressure from the oil hole in the lifter bore. There's also other problems with the internals of roller hydraulic lifters and quality control.
I don't think it has anything to do with the oil band, this set of lifters worked for 3,000 miles then started to fail. Probably poor manufacturing or substandard material or both. Comp will tell you how they have engineered the best lifter in the world but wont tell you where it's made.The first set was bad right out of the box. When engine building shops stop using a brand altogether due to failures it tells you something. I'm sure there are thousands of sets of comp lifters in cars running strong but how many times is too much. Do they accept 1% failure? 5%? 10?
May be the engine other than the lifters. Lifter bores could be too short or too wide. I measured the bores and lifters before I assembled, they were within spec. I spun the engine with the heads and valve train assembled but the valley pan and intake off, the lifter grooves did not go below the bottom of the bores. Could be bent push rods, I took them out they are straight. Could be the studs are coming loose, I checked they are tight. Could be the camshaft is failing, no metal in the oil or filter, can't see it melting with a roller lifter. Could be the valve seats are pounding up into the heads. SHUDDER don't want to even think about that but it is possible, I think not but.
I had a page of notes on the subject as I was having issue too. I don't have the notes in front of me so going from memory. I was able to trade my lifters in on 1/2 credit for the Shaver ones. Car is not on the road yet.
There are several issues at play on the subject of roller lifters. Oil band height, oil feed hole height in the block, lobe base circle height and roller lifter quality. All contributing to the same issue with oil pressure keeping the lifter pumped up. The issue is the lifter oil feed may not be exposed to the oil feed from the block the entire rotation of the cam. This in turn is the cause of the poor pump up action of the lifter.
Core shift and different year blocks can deviate the location of the oil feed hole. Larger lift cams will reduce the base circle opposite of the lift side of the lobe to get the lift needed thus dropping the lifter oil band below the oil feed. Many of the lifter makers use a Chevy body lifter that have the oil band in the wrong location. Even with the oil band in the correct location the other issue already listed can still be a factor.
It seemed like there were only a hand full of roller lifter makers for Pontiac. CompCam had their crappy old style. Then they changed to Shaver. I think the Hylift Johnson is pretty new. And then there is the Morels that sell to Lunati and several others.
Anyway the very first post of that thread provides a fix for any quality roller lifter but it requires grinding the oil feed hole up the lifter bore. I will doing this on my next block.
I have used the hylift Johnson hydraulic flat tappet lifters on the last 4 engines I have built. Good quality lifters and never had any issues. Paul Carter does all my machine work.
Thanks, me too. I'm not the world's best engine builder, or the world's best anything for that matter, but it would be a lot easier, less expensive, more fun and a lot less frustrating if one could purchase quality components that consistently performed as advertised. Most aftermarket stuff I've dealt with are not anywhere near as good as factory parts and no where near as advertised. "one part fits none"
Seems some roller lifters for Pontiac used Chev bodies, the oil band would drop below the bottom of the lifter bore, when on base circle, and the oil would drop out, thus no pump-up. The lifter could then catch on the bottom of the bore leading to lifter, bore and ultimately engine failure. That's bright! In order to get a very high-lift cam lobe to fit down the cam tunnel the base circle may be ground smaller, that would result in the lifter dropping even lower in the lifter bore.
Seems Comp is buying lifters with a Pontiac design body now but the quality is still not there.
First thing is to ask the cam companies if they make their own lifters, if not shop somewhere else. Next is to ask them for all the dimensions and if the lifter body is Pontiac specific or a re-worked Chev body. Kind of a pain in the rear, should be able to look in the catalouge pick what you want order it up and drive. Should, but...
I've talked to Crower about their lifters and may try another hydraulic roller or switch to solid lifters.
I read on another Pontiac site one guy has the same cam as mine, put in a set of solids and it solved his lifter woes. Just waiting for him to get back to me with the rest of his car and engine specs to determine if that is a route I should take.
The solids don't have the same oil band issue as the hyd ones? I realize they don't need to pump up but I guess the only reason for oil to travel thru is to oil the valve train. Yes? I've heard from other guys that didn't bother to restrict oil to the top and never had issues.
Hard to get a grasp on what is really up with lifters. I talked to Butler who informed me oil restrictors are needed for all solid rollers. I contacted Crower who said oil restrictors are not needed and not recommended. Hmm.
Talked to one vendor who told me running solids on a hydraulic cam will shorten the effective duration and another who told me the duration will be increased. I don't think they know any more than the rest of us. They both specialize in Pontiac, sell Pontiac parts and build Pontiac crate engines. I can see the duration seeming smaller with a hydraulic that bleeds down too much oil but if they are operating as designed the lash should be zero thus the solids would have the shorter duration due to the lash setting.
But I do know these Comp hydraulic rollers are junk and will be replacing them. Not sure just yet but will most likely go for a cam swap and run solid rollers. Probably have to set the rockers even less than I've had to do with the Comp hydraulics.
After finding metal in my oil filter and in the container I drained the oil into , I new I had a bad problem. Now I have to take the engine apart, clean and inspect it. When I took the pan off I was pleasantly surprised there was not a pile of shaving, but there was some. I did find a piece of metal that looked like it came from a gear. I got the rockers push rods and lifters out and found one of the lifters broken. The cup broke into five pieces. Push rod is straight and valve looks OK, but I haven't removed the valves yet. Haven't got the heads, cam, pistons, crank etc out yet so I don't know what kind of damage I have down there. I hope it didn't wipe the crank or the cylinder walls. I have this 428 bored out 65 thou already, if the cylinders are scored I'll have to buy another block.
So, I'd be interested to know if this failed lifter was made by this company, or if it is one of the older ones, which had so many failures. ???
As mentioned, Paul Carter uses Johnson lifters, and grinds an oil channel, about 1/4 inch down from the oil feed hole, to connect with the lower, Chevy oil band. The Johnson lifters are not the cheapest lifters sold. But, with all the $$$$$ invested in a Pontiac roller motor, I suppose even a few hundred extra would be cheap insurance.
That just sucks. I feel your pain. Hopefully no damage when you open her up. I have a set of roller lifters that I got with a cam I bought used. I ran them for a short time but pulled the whole setup because it sounded like a sewing machine. It was a custom ground cam and the lobes were cut steep on the backside so they closed really fast. I figure that's why the last guy pulled them too. Anyway I thought I might drop them on a new cam if I decided to buy one. Wish I knew what brand they were. Think I'll just stick with flat tappets and oil supplements. Pretty easy. And pretty cheap.
Thanks guys, I probably should have said "ask where/who makes them', The first set I put in had no identification on the tye-bar, this set says Comp Cams and has an arrow pointing up. Doesn't mean much. I'm sure Comp and the rest of them put tenders out to have them manufactured, I'm sure they don't pic the highest bid, most likely the cheapest. I'm also quite sure the guys who do the job make them for a lot of suppliers and just put a different logo on the tye-bar, if they use one at all. Both sets came in the identical box. Instructions were the same except the first sheet said to set 1/8-1/4 turn pre-load and the second sheet said to use 1/2 turn. The cheapest are probably not the best. I looked all over them for some kind of a manufacturers mark but no luck, can't tell you who made them. Crower says they lead the market in manufacturing high quality rollers. That doesn't quite say they actually make them in-house.
When I had the trouble with the first set the so-called tech rep at comp kept telling me to increase the pre-load 1/8 to 1/4 to 1/2 to 1 to 1-1/2 to 2. 2? I told him if I wanted solid lifter I would have bought solid lifters. When we got to 2 I new they didn't know what they were talking about or trying to cover up for a bad batch of lifters. I phoned Dave and he said the valves wouldn't close at 2, he replaced them and fought with comp himself for replacements. has more clout with them than I as he buys gobs of stuff from them.
The lifter body itself looks new, no marks or scrapes as does the lifter bore.
Camshaft looks good, bearings are shot, I may be able to micro polish out the light marks on the rod journals and the number three main, I will try to polish the scratches on the pistons, touch and go there. May be calling Ross for a new set. Oh boy! I think I ca bottle hone out the marks on the cylinder walls. Other than the lifter and bearings, the pistons took the worst damage. But I havn't taken the valves out yet, I'm kinda worried about the valve guides.
So plan is to put in a solid roller with Crower lifters and rockers. Maybe I'll win a lottery or picking up beer bottles out of the ditches may help. I'm sure Comp isn't going to pitch in.
Hey Al, sorry to hear about your motor. Are the bearings damaged from debris going through or from wear? When my 455 cam went the oil pump sucked all the crap through and went through the oil filter bypass and got everything. When our race motor went, the bypass had been plugged by the builder and the carnage stopped at the filter. We now have a half set of comp bbc sr lifters that haven't wrecked a motor yet if anyone is interested. The lifters didn't have very many runs on them but they were worn out. We now have crower severe duty sr lifters with high pressure pin oiling. I believe they said they were good to 1000 psi open pressure. We will be taking that motor apart in jan. to check it and I'll report on them then. Neill
Hi Neill, The filter was full of crap, but the pan wasn't any where near as bad. Most of the stuff got sucked up and caught in the filter, not enough to impede flow I think when first started and the oil pressure is around 80 some gets by the bypass. I had some very small debris in the bearings. The bearings did their job and captured the debris and wore down rather than the journals wearing. I just noticed, as I was clearing things off the bench making room to strip the heads, one of the PRW stainless roller rockers had made contact with the poly lock. I took two of the rockers apart and found the trunnions worn on both. The trunnion metal is so soft there is needle imprints in the truninion steel. They made the rocker bodies stainless but used soft steel for the pivot trunnions. Gets stupider every minute. That may be where the fine bits came from that failed the bearings. Cliff Ruggles tells me he had a set of the PRW rockers and they filled his engine with metal as well. If I had a bone stock engine I'd heave all this after market junk off the dock into the chuck.
Do you know what brand of rocker arms you will go with? Dave at SD is out of stock on the 1.65 Harland Sharp ones he sells so looking at other brands/suppliers. Lordco pricing has gone through the roof since the old man died and they want to sell me comp stuff.
I'm going with Crower Enduro stainless steel rollers, Dave sells them but they are way more $$ than the Harland Sharp. Doesn't have any 1.52 or 1.55 but does sell 1.5, 1.6, 1.65 and 1.7. I just want to confirm with someone that the trunnions are not going to go south like the PRW ones did.
The guys at Mid Island engine and machine in Duncan may be able to get you what your looking for at a good price. I bought some stuff from them and they mailed it over to the Island. Lordco gives me a 30% discount as I belong to the Torque Masters Club, but last time I got a carb it was still cheaper at Napa. I have to go to Houston TX in Jan. to help an Olds guy put in new kitchen cabinets due to the hurricane damage, I may get all what I need delivered to his house and fight with the boarder guards on the way home.
Too bad you didn't make it to Victoria for the last race of the season, I would have liked to see you run.
I figure those 2 sizes are so popular because the stock bore of so many engines is 4.125. That makes a .030 over a 4.155, & a .060 over a 4.185. So, rings & piston blanks are very common in those sizes.
"...The very best HR lifters out there are the Crane units, but nearly twice the cost of the USA made units from everyone else. We've used the Crane a few times, they are excellent and never to date had a "ticker" on any other issues with any of them. It's still tough to dish out almost $800 for a set when Lunati, Comp, Howards and everyone else sells USA made versions for $400-450.......Clifff "
Yeah, there are a lot of guys with 463, 464 CID engines, and like me they buy the internals from vendors who have have built a number of them almost the same. Maybe different cams rocker ratios and such. When I did mine it seemed everyone was pushing large stroke cranks with Chev size journals so they could use the cheaper BBC rods, bearings etc. I decided to stick with the Pontiac sizes. One thing I have noticed is a number of builds almost the same as mine, cid, heads, CR etc, that have no issues with detonation and I've been fighting with it since I built. I've addressed fuel/air, heat, timing everything I can do but.. Maybe it was the lifters not opening the valves soon enough and closing the intake too soon. Find out when I get this back together. Talked to a few of them who ended up with cranking cylinder pressuers of around 190-195 and mine is 210 straight across.
Cliff told me last month he has the Crower HIPPO solid roller and the enduro stainless rockers in his engine now. I don't really care what brand I put in, as long as it isn't comp, and I know that paying more money for a part doesn't necessarily make it better. What I do want is to buy some components put them in, have them work as they are supposed to and not worry about them failing and costing me thousands more $$$.
If I have to tear this engine down again I just may throw it and the car into the chuck. I hope I don't sound too pst-off
I hope not, a lot of them out there and running just fine. I think getting as much info as one can before building is important, what has worked and not worked for others. If I'd known about all the problems with these lifters and rockers before I started I would have gone another route. Oldsmobile guys have had trouble with them as well, same part number and the Pontiac. They may have things worked out now with a different manufacturer, but I've been bitten twice.
Well those sure aren't the same as the comps. The pin/rivet that holds the link on is a lot larger in dia, there are round plates on both sides of the bar rather than just one, and the cup is held in place with a snap ring/circlip rather than a spiral lock. Has a full body as well. I'd like to take one apart and compare it to the comp's guts.
I noticed, when I drilled the rivet off the lifter and took it apart, the plate [metering plate? metering disc?] under the cup does not have any holes in it. My memory is not as it used to be but I thought the plate had holes to allow a metered amount of oil to bleed up through the cup, pushrod and to the rockers. Back in the 60s and 70s we used to put washers between the disc and the cup body, I remember holes in the metering disc. I haven't taken a modern after market lifter apart. Perhaps the cup body doesn't sit down on the disc but rests on the top of the plunger body allowing the disc to move up off the recces in the plunger, letting oil pass around the outside of the disc and up through the cup?
I had the rocker covers off yesterday to check the valve lash and thought I would post an update. It's been 8 years and 35+ thousands of miles with too many over revving runs (7400rpm) and the Crower solid lifters and roller rockers are still going strong. After the pain I had with the comps, I was ready to give up. Thing are so good with the setup I only had to adjust two valves since the last time 9000 miles ago. The old girl is still going strong, it's in better shape than I am.
Ran solid rollers on street engines. Gets to be a problem if the rollers and the cam lobes don't get constant oiling like they do at higher RPM's The rollers and cam lobes start pitting. But then again, nothing last forever.
