Hi everyone,

I don't get on here too much, but I am making progress on my 69. I would like to know where the floor color ends and the black firewall color starts? Is it at the floor to firewall seam, or where the firewall transitions to the tunnel? I'd like to get this right. Thanks. Here are two pictures, but I hope they upload.

Here is where I stopped with color (at the floor seam). I am thinking I should have gone further up the firewall, thoughts? Thanks.

It is hard to answer your question when the floor was originally the same color as the firewall. So originally there was not a distinct line.Most of the bottom if any color was overspray. So I guess you will have to decide what looks best to you. Since you painted the underneath body color it would seem the fire wall would look better that color so there is no transition. Your not going for correctness so I would do the firewall and inner fenders the same.

x2.

I know there is a lot of debate on this, but the 69 convertibles from Van Nuys came with gray primer on the bottom and the Ohio plant had red oxide, although there is one member on here that has a body colored floor from Ohio. I guess it depends on what you believe to be true. For me, it was just not wanting a black bottomed car, or the gray primer either. Body color looks nice and will accentuate the detail with all my new brake and fuel lines, not to mention after putting a new floor in the car with new bracing, that I didn't want it to be all covered up with undercoating.

I did go thru some pictures yesterday of a red RAIII convertible (almost perfect show car, that was featured in Hemming's Muscle Machines a few years back). I know the owner of that car and although I didn't have the best picture to see the exact area, he did have the black firewall transition near the seam of the floor to the gray primer, so I'm going to keep it where it is.

Thanks for the input and I appreciate your opinions a lot.

Mark.

I would agree with you Mark. I found on my 68 Firebird, top and bottom was sprayed in topcoat. There is a famous pic of a 69 Firebird lowering the body down into the chassis. You can see the underbody including the inner fenders are painted top coat red.

I would continue your top coat up to the firewall. Then spray the firewall (top down) and let the black overspray the topcoat at the bottom of firewall.

Looks great, good luck!

Harold,
Are you saying the entire floor color was painted black? My vert was top coat and not just over spray. However, my coupe looked like more black than top coat.

The entire floor was primed - Red oxide I think. Then they painted the firewall and floor black about 20-30% gloss. . Lots of time the black did not cover the trans tunnel good so sometimes the red oxide is seen in there. When they painted the topcoat, the bottom of the rockers were painted. So a lot of top coat color got on the bottom because they did not tape it off and they do this quickly.

So yes the entire floor was black but there was a lot of color seen in the wheel wells and underside because of the over spray. No GM under side floors were actually painted the top coat color. chrysler\dodge actually painted theirs body color back in the day.

The 69 famous image shows a black under body. You can see red on the rear frame rails and where the rockers were painted but the underside is black.

As I mentioned, there is a lot of debate on this. I have seen the picture numerous times, and I still ask myself from which plant is this picture taken? Do the convertibles get something different than the coupes? Lot's of unknowns here, and I honestly don't know for sure, but the car I referenced with the gray primer is a true nearly perfect show car, with every number/nut/bolt correct. It has the gray primer, and I believe that information was provided to the owner by a former GM Pontiac executive familiar with the Van Nuy's built convertibles. This could be hearsay for all I know but I didn't want gray primer or black, so this was the option. I didn't want to cover up all the good work done to the bottom.

What you have done looks good and I love a painted bottom like the top side. I also like the same color firewall and engine compartment. I was just stating the fact about the transition line. I have not heard about the debate about if the bottom was painted. I have heard about the primer bottom and the Camaro assembly process kinds of backs it up.

You did what you wanted to do and it looks good. That is all that it matters. If it was mine I would also do the same to the firewall and wheel wells in the engine compartment. It would look awesome.

Thanks, I do appreciate your opinion, believe me, I spent the better part of a year flip flopping on what color to do the bottom. It was a tuff decision, but I really like the Vedoro Green the more I look at it. More importantly, I am ready for the next steps in getting the car back on her feet. Thanks to all for the input.

Take a look at this closeup. Your probably right Harold.

What brand of paint and paint gun are you using? I'm using PPG and SATA guns.

Black yes, but I'm still not convinced this isn't undercoating on this particular car or if this is a true representation of the Van Nuys convertibles that had the gray primer? Oh, well not to dwell on that.

I painted the bottom with my Devilbiss starting line HVLP gun (1.3 tip), I have a separate gun with a 1.5 & 1.8 tip that I've used with the epoxy primer and black chassis paint.

I'm using PPG DP50 epoxy primer (DP50 is the gray), they have other colors as well.
GM Restoration paint Black - for the frame and Front chassis components. This is what they used back in the day, now it's the same color/sheen but reformulated.


I've got all the suspension parts painted and ready to go when I'm finished with the rest of the bottom.

The amount of body color on the undercarriage is said to vary significantly. Several years ago on the Firebird List, one of the members posted an interview with one of the paint line ex-employees. I lost the saved post on an old AOL account long ago. I recall that after the manual part of the body painting some supervisors on the line encouraged the painters to hit more of the undercarriage than others. I also believe that as a color on the line was being switched over, the painters would try to run out their sprayers on the undercarriage. My '68 had a significant amount of body color except in the tunnel/hump and other higher recesses.

The photo was taken at the Lordstown plant per John Hinckley, one of the guys in the photo - see the article at the attached link: http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml

More importantly, they were putting redline tires on that car...

And what the heck is that in front of the Firebird on the assembly line?

I've wondered that too.

Chevy section of plant..4 door chevy blaaaa car! lol

After much analysis, it looks to me like Chevrolet Bel Air or Biscayne, but I could be wrong.

Here are some photos of my original color paint in the wheel wells of my Firebird. The bottom had too much under coating on it to determine body color.

Harold, Although the wells got the initial primer and acrylic lacquer body color, I don't believe the '68s left the factory with the body color showing in the wheel wells. My '68 did not get an aftermarket undercoating yet the wheel wells were coated with a thick coating. Wanting to duplicate that coating I found an asphalt spray called Preservatek that seemed to be the closest to the documentation and look of my original coating.
The coating is referenced twice in the '68 Sales manual:
- Under standard body features: "The inner fender, or shield, designed to utilize wheel splash to rinse away dirt, mud and salt, is protected against corrosion itself by a special coating of asphalt latex."
- Under soundproofing and insulation: "A heavy coat of mastic is applied to wheel wells and inner-door panels,...."

Look something like this?

You know Jim, I'm looking at my pics of the undercarriage on my vert and that thinks stuff your talking about is pretty much everywhere. I was able to scrape off the black stuff to check the paint color and it is the Nordic blue, single coat (probably) and in lacquer and hence dull.

Do you think they sprayed all the undercarriage with that stuff or just the fenders? If they spray entire undercarriage then it's called "undercoating"

That coating was in all four wells on mine. The undercarriage was oil-soaked crud over some body color.

The body color was showing after I scraped the black crud off. I assume it was over spray when the body was painted.

I like KBS products and would like to see how this would turn out. https://www.kbs-coatings.com/UnderCoat-Solvent-Asphalt.html

That KBS product looks similar to the stuff I used.

Jim,

I plan to undercoat my rear wheel wells tomorrow. The stuff that replicates the original is 3M body Schutz. You need a specific gun to apply it (which I have) and it will have that popcorn look (for the lack of a better word). The schutz stays rubber like I believe like the originals stuff. Someone also commented to me that the front wheel wells did not get the schutz coating.

There is also another product called Wurtz that is a clear wax like coating - this coating drys hard and can be painted over, but I am not as familiar with this.

Harold, thank you for the KBS link by the way in the FB firebird group. Looks like a good product but I decided to go with the 3m body Schutz.

Correcting my information about Wurtz, it's not that it's Wurth. Sorry.

I think the crud your referring to is the buildup that occurs under the body. Oil leaks + dirt etc. I think Jim has it right about the wheel wells. I will find my LH side front wheel well and see what it looks like. I confirmed the rear pans were sprayed.

I have painted these cars back in the early 80's and current (2017). Pontiac primer was black, red or grey. It must be covered with top coat or your going to have trouble. The primer is porous and cannot shield itself from the UV rays. Exposed primer will allow rust to start again.
Primer sticks to bare metal, bondo and topcoat. Top coat sticks to primer only. In today's world it's typically bare metal, primer sealer, bondo, primer filler, primer sealer, top coat, clear coat.

From what I have read and experienced (actual paint removal experience), I would argue the car body was dipped in primer(s), coated with either black or grey primer, and to a lesser extent (in 68') red oxide. Then most of the car was painted with one coat of top coat. The top coat was a lacquer based paint. If you ever sprayed this stuff you would know that it goes on very dry and dull. Paint over spray turns into dust very quickly.
It will not stick to the shop floor. So if there is "over spray" on the body it won't wonder too far. The painting of the top coat over the primer was indeed
deliberate and not drifting wet paint vapor failing onto the paint surface. Some of you may feel it's over spray because of the quality of the paint. GM painted multiple coats on their cars + heavy buffing to get a shine. They did not do multiple coats and buffing of the body shell areas we are focusing on.
NO GM car (top side or bottom) came out of the plant looking as good as 4dabird's floor pan!

P.S. One of the best places to confirm top coat color is under the rear axle bumper on the rear frame. The top coat was sprayed on the under body before the axle bumper was installed and the paint was sealed from any salt, water etc. so it indeed is a good time capsule.

My only comment would be that if you coated the car in primer as I did using a PPG 2K epoxy primer and not the regular rattle can stuff, you would be ok. The hardened epoxy primer is tuff as nails and not porous.

I did Schutz coat the rear wheel wells yesterday and I am happy with the turnout. It's a messy process but well worth the time. Only thing left now is the dashboard painted black. Then its going to assembly and get the car back on it's wheels. I'll post some pictures when I have a chance.

I believe PPG recommends you always have a top coat. Tough as nail ... when out of the sun and moisture.
Ask your ppg rep.

Here is a comment from another forum..

Quote

But the main reason I brought this up is IF you plan on driving the car for any extended periods of time with the car being left outside in the weather and the sun beating down on it you will have problems later. There is NO sun UV protection in epoxy primer so the UV rays will start destroying the primer on a molecular level with the end result of serious adhesion problems later. And if the car sits outside in the rain (or snow) eventually the moisture will penetrate through the primer to metal and cause rust problems.

So to make a long story short -- you can epoxy primer panels and let them sit for extended periods of time IF the car is left high and dry in a garage out of the weather.

http://autobodystore.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-20495.html

Here is a photo of the schutz (3M) I like how it turned out.

Beautiful! Great match to the original.