Hi all

For those looking for a little more info regarding 3 point seat belts, below is a recent exchange of emails with Niklas in Gothenburg.

His installation is similar to Claus'.

There should be 5 images to view as well, assuming I posted `em right.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ridell, Niklas (C.N.)
To: Dave Smith
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 2:45 AM
Subject: RE: Firebird 3-pt Seat Belts


Hey

You're making me blush...
"His mod was perfect and very professionally done."
Let's see if you think the same after seeing the pictures.
Anyway, I will try to describe the modification:

I used a generic aftermarket kit. The kit was made in Germany (I live in Europe) but I'm sure you can find something similar in US.
I managed to hide the belt retractor inside the rear seat armrest. The belt comes up between the armrest and the quarter panel. I just had to shim out the armrest enough to let the belt slide freely. The only problem here is that the body structure behind the armrest is quite weak with lots of holes and stuff. I welded a patch over this area stretching down to the floor as well for support before I bolted up the retractor.

In the roof I first bolted a block of steel with recessed holes for allen head screws. The screws are recessed to allow the swirl bracket to swing around free. I also made the block thick enough to provide plenty of threads for the belt bolt. The block is bolted to the roof in what is supposed to be the original shoulder belt position. I was expecting to find some sort of weld nuts in the roof but couldn't find any. Maybe I was searching in the wrong position. I could find a sheet metal "pocket" though which I used for fixation. I drilled thru the headliner and this sheet metal pocket and then made another block of steel with two threaded holes which I slid into the pocket. I managed to do this without removing the headliner, just lifting it a little at the sail panel.

For the other belt fixation points (at the rocker and the belt buckle) I used the original weld nuts.

When the modification was completed I found that the belt geometry sucks. The roof fixation is sitting too high up making the belt rub against your neck. I'm not sure but I suppose this occurs also if you have the original shoulder belt setup. I ended up extending the swirl bracket. This improved the situation a lot. In the pictures you can see the laser cut sheet metal pieces I welded in.

Ok, check the pictures and let me know what you think.

/Niklas
Gothenburg Sweden
'68 Coupe

[img]http://firstgenfirebird.org/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=109[/img]

[img]http://firstgenfirebird.org/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=110[/img]

[img]http://firstgenfirebird.org/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=111[/img]

[img]http://firstgenfirebird.org/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=112[/img]

[img]http://firstgenfirebird.org/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=113[/img]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Dave Smith
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:54 PM
To: Ridell, Niklas (C.N.)
Subject: Firebird 3-pt Seat Belts


Hi Niklas

Bjorn Sefledt posted your info on the firstgenfirebird.org website during a discussion about 3 point seatbelts.

"Nashville68Bird" noted that you had sent him some information and plans for installing 3 point belts in a first gen firebird, and stated "His mod was perfect and very professionally done."

I'm attempting to do the same modification now, and would greatly appreciate it if you could send me the same information.

Thank you very much in advance

David Smith
"Slayer31"

Edmonton, Alberta
Canada

Sweden...Denmark...doesn't anyone on this site live in Southern Germany? I'm gong through Firebird withdrawl!

David,

Great that you touched base with Niklas and got an updated thread from him. As you can see in his pictures, he did do quite a bit of modifications, but for all the right reasons.

I was very impressed with his work when he and I talked and shared info last spring. Very nice fellow, and good friend of Bjorns.

yes ,of course ,Thomas Brandl does, Munich as a matter of fact...how close is that for you??

Thomas Brandl
Member
Registered: February 12, 2005
Posts: 340
Loc: Munich, Germany
(84.151.246.121)


and dont forget Hansi, in Norway!you left a country out... LOL

Now I understand that installing a 3 point belt is what's required by law in those areas but it seems to me that it's basically the same geometry of our original belt design. The originals also had 3 mounting points(coupe of course).
I was considering buying some new belts and discovered for non-competition the 3 point system is better than a 4 point because in case of rollover it allows the occupant to fold over the belt to avoid head injury. I may look into some more updated belts to replace my originals. I'm not sure how well 40 year old belts would hold up in a high speed adventure.

Robert

Robert, there are important and extensive mods needed to truly set the FGF up for success when it comes to safe 3-point seatbelts. Niklas modified and created new parts to achieve that.

Yes, we can all install generic kits that fit in our FGF birds (but don't truly protect us), or rely on the original 40-year-old 3-belt system that came with some of our cars (forget that!).

The FGF Body needs modified hardware to truly protect us and our loved ones while we drive around town and along the highway.

I've never seen any better and accurate mod than that of Niklas.

A problem with the original seatbelt(s) is that once strpped in, -you are totally pinned down... -ofcause that's because there wasn't any self locking mechanism, as in all new cars..

-Another thing to consider is when installing the seatbelts that high (as original) -seatbelt will rub against neck, -and some might not want the seatbelt to be in the window.

Mind you it's good craftmanship, and is absolutely more safe than original..

Anyone tried using a newer seat with integrated seatbelts?

FirebirdMike,

I´m not sure if I can help against your Firebird withdrawl because mine is still in restoration mode and about 70 miles away from where I live and work. So I only get close to it on weekends when I have enough spare time to work some hours...
Nevertheless you´re welcome whenever you want to take a trip to Munich.
PM me and I will send you my exact adress including my phone number and email adress.

Cheers

Thomas

Does that mean the car is 70 miles from Munich, or you are? I"m between Stuttgart and Heilbronn.

I did almost the same, Maybe a little more lazy, didnt thought about hiding it . That was much smother , and a good idee. But however it works fine, even when you have to mount a "child-car-chair" ( hope you understand) . It feels pretty safe to , I have put the biggest metal washer between the upper support point and the bolt to reinforce it as much as I could.
In Sweden you dont have to use safety belt at cars 1968 and older . Dont know how it works in Denmark and Norwegian.

Firebird Mike, you around Freiberg, along the Neckar River? I spent some time there as well!! Ah, that Autobahn between Heilbron and Stuttgart is SWEET!! There are a few "downhills" where you can exceed 140 MPH.

Tommy, great pics! Thanks for sharing them. Of course you are working a convertible so it'd been different.

Niklas's biggest improvement to his Mod package was his elongation of the upper belt extender, and his build-up of the hardpoint that that extender is bolted to.

Those two modifications are critical to our safe modern use of the FGF coupe. The original 3-point upper hardpoint was poorly placed (chokes anyone over 6 feet tall) and the hardpoint was not sufficient to hold a big person during a high-speed crash.

First, you need a car that will do 140+mph. Then you need the traffic out of the way. My best was 135mph in a rental. Can't do it in my car, but before I leave I want one run exceeding 150mph.

My bird has done 140, -with power to spare... -I wanna exceed the 160 speedometer...

-Hence the need for 3 point seatbelts -just in case ..

-Not that it would do that much of a difference w. that speed..

not really , lets say you`re topping out at 120 mph as my Fiat 1500 convertible did...driving towards Munich I got top a very nice down hill, I could "feel" it speed up ,even though the speedo was still pegged at 120

Last time I heard about a first gen doing 150 I also heard about multiple deaths and one decapitation(friends). It just so happens it was on Loop 1604 near San Antonio. The famed 'Death Loop'.

yeah ,but thats here in the US with American drivers.... not in Europe ,on Autobahn ,with well taught drivers...there IS a difference...

Yeah, these were just kids. Weren't even wearing seat belts. Ironically, two were Air Force pilots. Need for speed..... Thinking back..... I'm not sure that any driving training would have saved them.... A blow out at 150 is hard to train for.

its not the speed that kills ,its the sudden impact...all you got to train for is avoiding that impact...several ways of doing that...the most important is to be alert and knowing what to do,....

...and the periodic maintenance of the vehicle is strictly adhered too. The tires are matched to the vehicle speed and climate conditions....

Sorry but the Opel Zafira (the what?) only tops out at 125-130mph downhill with a tailwind. And I got the "big" 2.2L.

The Bird would probably be rpm limited to 110mph.

Jim
" Yeah, these were just kids. Weren't even wearing seat belts"
Talking about kidds
look at
http://www.jesper.nu/visaFilm/377/