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Find answers to Frequently Asked Questions for First Generation Firebirds that have been asked on First Generation Firebird-L mailing list. Special thanks needs to be given to all the Firebird-L owners that took the time to respond to other subscribers questions. These pages are continuously updated as new information is posted on the mailing list.
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| Q: | Ralley II wheel code |
| Does someone know the correct codes for Rally Rims? Specifically, I heard there was a different code for rims on drum versus disc. | |
| A: |
Check out the following WEB site by Richard Rauch: Rich's Pontiac Server http://pontiacserver.com/wheels.html It is a fairly comprehensive page dedicated to pontiac rims and codes. |
| A: | Parts book published in 1971 says 67 used JA for disc and JC for drums 68 was JC for all. Try and figure this one out. All the parts for disc were the same for 67 and 68 so what made the difference I don't know. A-body was just as confusing. I have several sets of JA and JC wheels so I m going to measure the offset of both. You can post this info if you want to. |
| A: | The correct Rally II wheels for '68 Firebirds with Disc Brakes is "JC". References: '68 Service Manual, '68 Parts Book, Broadcast Sheet ((I've also verified this and several original, unrestored '68's)). At some point, someone started this (JA in '68) 'technical error' while refering to the '67-'68 GTO and '67 Firebird. |
| A: | Still dont have a clear idea of why 67s used two different RallyII wheels, one for drums the other for discs. Want to remind everyone that the code is at the valve stem not inside the rim. Ive seen some stamped with JC inside the rim and have a different code at the valve stem. |
| Q: | Correct/Original Rally II Rims on '68 |
| I'm interested in putting Rally IIs on my '68 (Verdoro Green - a great color) with factory power disk brakes. I understand that only a certain code will fit otherwise the wheel hits the caliper. Ames said it was code J0. Does anyone know this for sure? How hard is it to find them? | |
| A: |
..For many years, people and resto guides have been passing around the wrong info when it comes to the Disc Brake Rally II Wheel. For the GTO, the correct code is "JA" For the Firebird however, the code is NOT "JA" but instead, "JC" which is also the same for Drum Brakes. That's right, you don't need a special Rally II for Disc Brake Firebirds. Here's the proof....
*68 Service Manual lists "JC" as correct for the Disc Brake Rally II *Broadcast Sheet lists "JC" as correct for ALL Rally II applications. *The Parts Book (dated '69) lists "JC" as correct for all '68 Firebird RallyIIs I've inspected several original unrestored '68 Firebird's and found "JC" wheels on all of them. There is a different wheel if you had wheel covers. That is "HK" comapared to the standard "HG" rim. I have an original '68 Firebird that came with Disc Brakes and Rally IIs. The rims I have are all "JC" and I don't see any clearance problems. Sure, you can pay the extra money for the "JA" wheels but you don't have to and besides, they're not even correct. Even the latest "FIREBIRD DECODING GUIDE" by Thomas DeMauro (HPP) lists the wrong code. Infact, they don't even come close as they list "HK" for the DiscBrake Rally II wheel. So, for '68 Firebird's with Disc Brakes, look for the "JC" rim. It's documented as correct and it's much cheaper than the "JA" that all these used parts dealers sell thinking it's the Disc Brake Rim for all '67'/'68 Firebirds/GTOs |
| Q: | Rallye II Wheel Fit |
| Seems I got a pair for '68 +/-, and a pair from the early 70's, when GM made the holes smaller. Am I up a creek or is there some way to get caps that match for these things. HELP!! | |
| A: | There's a lot more to Rallye II wheels than the responses have indicated. There were probably 30 or 40 varieties of this wheel, likely a half-dozen in just the 14x6 size! The ONLY way to know what you have is check the 2-letter code on the wheel next to the valve stem, and post it here for us to help you. There were also some numbers stamped near the valve, but these were date codes. The larger center hole is a non-issue (the caps will fit), but you need to make sure of wheel offsets. Some later 14x6 wheels were used on Ventura II's, the Nova body clone of 71-74 including the last year of the GTO. They have different offsets than the correct wheels for your car. Even in 68 alone, there was the JC code for Firebirds, and a JA code for Tempest/LeMans/GTO. The later 71-74 wheels were coded something with N or M as the second letter, I can't remember if there was an HN/HM or something else. I know there were HF wheels I have that are 15x7 with a 4-3/4" bolt pattern used on the A and G body cars from 73-77. Speaking of 15 inch wheels, there were also 15x6 and 15x7 for full-sized cars with a 5 inch wheel stud pattern! I even know of 4 different 14x7 wheels with different sized center holes that all have the same offset, from the JK code for 69 Firebird and Grand Prix, JM for 70 same cars except Trans Am, JS for 71 and KS for 72. The 70 Trans Am had a special wheel, looked like a center section from a 14 inch wheel, with a deep-dropped center 15 inch rim, that would not accept any trim rings (Olds did something similar in 75 that had a ring that would retro-fit). |
| A: | Thanks for response. I went and checked, I'll give you the codes both inside and out. Here goes; one wheel has JC outside and JJ inside. The next has KT out and JK in. Then, JA out and JK in. The last has HN out and JK in. Now as for offsets, if I remember correctly, the offset is measured on the inside of the rim, from the inside edge down to the bolt holes. I checked this with a straight edge across the inside rim, then measured down to the holes vertically. After checking this, I found 2 of the rims measured 4 inches and the other 2 measured 4 1/4 inches. Man what a mess this is turning into. Didn't have clue as to how many variations there were. If I measured correctly, how do I know if I can use them or not, now that I know that the caps will fit? Or do I have to go to the car, pull a rim, and measure the drum? All I'm sure of is that the drums are stock. |
| A: | Guys, I would suggest we all get on the SAME PAGE!!! The code NEXT to the VALVE STEM is the one the parts book uses! The code on the INSIDE is the RIM type, but the one OUTSIDE is the WHEEL CODE for the ENTIRE WHEEL assembly!! That means the RIM, the CENTER and the OFFSET! Please stick with the WHEEL CODE on the outside, and ignore the RIM type! |
| A: |
Yup, Rally wheels seem so simple at first.
But that 1/4" width isn't really a big deal. About the only time you need to worry about brake clearance is with disk brakes, and even then many of the 14" variants clear those. You are safe with backspacing varying from 4" to 4.5", as long as you don't go crazy with tire sizes. And since these are only 14x6, you are limited there anyway to nothing much wider than a 225/60-14. That tire, on that wheel, should fit your car. A 215/60-14 might fit the wheel a bit better, and that will definately not have clearance problems with your car, even with that rear sag you mentioned earlier, but may appear a bit short. Going to a 70 series would get you taller tires, that might fit that narrow wheel better. |
| Q: | Wheel and Rim Compatibility |
| I am planning on buying 15X8 wheels with a 4" backspace. I would like to go with 225's up front and 275's out back. Will this work without body modifications? Anyone currently running this setup? I have seen 275's on 1st gen camaros, but never had a chance to talk to the owner. | |
| A: |
It would be helpful to know if you're talking about 60 or 50 series tires. This would greatly affect the fit question.
1st issue, the wheel. The factory 14x7 and 15x7 typically have a 4" backspacing. If you keep the back spacing the same, but make the tire and wheel wider, most of that new width goes to the outside. 4.5 inch backspacing on an 8 inch wheel would distribute the new width equally to the inside and outside. In measuring my car ('68), I found that I had room for 5" backspacing on an 8 inch wheel. This allowed me to fit a 265/50R-15, and not have it stick out of the wheel well. Now for tire sizes... If you are talking about 50 series tires, a 275/50-15 would most certainly protrude beyond the wheel opening. That tire will be about 10.82 inches wide, and will most likely be sticking out about an inch. If you use this tire and wheel combo, you will have to raise the car high enough to clear this tire, but it's up to you to decide it that looks good to you. Where the 50 or 60 series issue come up is related to the tire height. A 275/50-15 about 25.8 inches tall, a 275/60- 15 will be about 28 inches tall! You're going to have to lift the rear of this car alot to clear a 28 inch tire. Check the inside of your wheel well. The potential con- tact areas will be... the top inside area of the inner wheel house, The leaf spring, and then the lower shock mount are the moste likely places where it might rub. I would suggest the following steps. -Remove your present wheel and tire, and measure the backspacing. -But the tire and wheel back on the car. Now measure the amount of clearance you have, both on the inside and the outside. Allow at least half an inch for side to side movement of the axle, plus a margin for up and down movement, and then you can determine how much larger than your present tire you can fit. Pay attention to where you want the wheel/tire center- line, and what backspacing is needed to make it fit. -The end result will be that you will know that you can go x inches wider than present, but need y inches of backspacing to make it work. |
| A: | Why do all this measuring? I could tell you that you could fit tire size x on wheel y. This would work for a smaller tire, with much larger margins for error. But when you get into the big stuff, you have less room for mistakes. Each car is somewhat different, and the clearances onmy car may not be the same as yours. |
| Q2: |
You mentioned that you were running a five inch backspacing on a 15 inch rim with a 265/50-15 on the rear of your '68. Did they rub or hit at all (over big bumps, etc.)? I assume that you did not modify your rear suspension and that your springs were in good shape. Right?
If this combination gave you trouble free performance, I would love to see a picture to help get an idea of the appearance. Also, what are you running up front |
| A: |
The car got about 800 to 900 miles usage before going dormant to get the interior sorted out. That included about 700 miles of highway driving (trip to Reno), and the rest was low speed cruising on various road conditions. We did a lot of driving in and out of various driveways and parking lots that were off camber or had steep drives.
The rear suspension consists of all new parts including 5 leaf springs, KYB shocks, bushings, and shackles. No rubbing or hitting in the rear was noticed.The parts are all stock re- placements. Presently the rear sits a bit high by my preferences, about 3 inches above the tire. I hope that the springs will settle. If not, I'll have to remove a leaf to adjust the ride height. No problems with the ride being too stiff or harsh. I was running 225/60R-14s on 14x7 ralleys, which were in rough shape (the wheels). I have since changed to 225/60R-15s on 15x7 Ralley IIs. The front tires would occasionally hit the inside of the wheel wells when I drove to quickly into a driveway. The front springs have had 1 coil removed to get the nose down. |
| Q: | '67 Rally II Rims |
| Is the JA code ok for 67 firebirds? | |
| A: | I believe the offset is inward either 1/8" or 1/4" per wheel, and will narrow the tracking of your Firebird. You would be better off finding a Tempest/LeMans/GTO guy who is desperate for those JA's, and find yourself the correct JC code wheels for restoration. Unless of course you want to go to 7 inch wheels! |
| Q: | Rally Wheel Restoration |
| A couple of years ago I bought a set of 14's and a set of 15's from a local guy that advertised in the paper for $20.00 a piece. Yesterday I pulled out one of the 15's and spent about half an hour at the sand blaster and barely made a dent on removing the old paint. | |
| A: |
Heres how I clean up Rally wheels.
Friends will pay testament to this as I've had as many as 30
at a time being stripped and derusted on an assemblyline .
I did some wheels several years ago and are still bare and showing no signs of rust. The trash cans should be drained into proper containers and disposed of properly. With 3 cans you can do several wheels at the same time and in a days time can do about 5 or 6 sets. IVe also made some mask kits from vinyl that can be reused several times for about the same price as the ones others sell made of masking tape. |
| Q: | 15x7 Rally Rims |
| I've decided to take the step up to 15" rims to improve handling, but so far I've only found two wheels 15x7" Figure these wheels will be perfect for my rear end. But what should I buy for the front? The junkyard has got 14x6 and 14x7. Did the car have 7 inch wheels as original or will it look to wide? | |
| A: |
For safe operation, a tire should neither interfere with the
control arms or the frame on the inside of the wheel well,
nor should it contact the lip of the wheelwell opening, even
at full compression of the suspension. Some people like the
narrow tire stock look, and others prefer something wider,
perhaps much wider.
What fits your car depends on some variables. You might think that it is stock height becuase you haven't changed the springs, but age and wear can cause a car to settle to a lower ride height. Or perhaps you or a previous owner have lowered/raised the car? Maybe in an old accident the front subframe was bent slightly out of square, so the wheel hubs are slightly out of place in the wheel wells. Or due to age, variation in mfg, the wheel well openings are narrower/wider by .5" or so. You should be able to run 15x7 wheels in front as well, but be careful of your front tire choice. 235/60-15 might rub at full lock. Or they might not. These cars came with 14x6 and perhaps even 14x7 wheels as an option. Many of us have successfully run 15x7 or even 16x7 wheels. Some may even be running 8" wide wheels (as I am, in the rear). Wheel offset and tire size get more critical the larger you go. Take some measurements and check it out. Measure the backspacing on your 15x7" wheel. This taken by laying the wheel face down, and laying a straight edge across the back rim. At the middle, measure the depth to the rear face of the wheel center section where it would bolt to the brake hub. This measurement is you back spacing. Then with the front wheel still off the car, put a straight edge on the hub, with the weight of the car resting on a jack sitting under the front control arm. If you have a tire that is say, 26.1" tall (235/60R15), the radius of that is 13.05". If the tire has a 9" section width, and the wheel has a 4" backspacing, you need clearance at least 5.5". Allow another .25" to .50" for deflection. Tape a 9" piece of cardboard to your straight edge, looking like a letter "T". The top of the T should be offset to reflect your backspacing. Now rotate that T so that you see where it might interfere with any part of the frame, suspension, or wheel opening. Turn your steer- ing wheel to full lock in both directions and measure again. Re- member that as the suspension moves, so will the wheel. Allow for that movement in your measurements as well. This technique will give you some idea of what tire options will fit your particular car, given the wheels available to you. Sorry for the overly long reply, but perhaps this will enable you and others to figure out for yourselves what will fit, and what choices you have. Plus, many of us will tolerate a lot more changes from stock than others. Rebuilt Ralley II wheels are available from Wheel Vintiques in a variety of offsets, and sizes. From 14x6 to 15x10. Custom offsets are also available. These wheels use old center sections welded to new rims, and then powder coated and painted in the orginal pattern. The also sell trim rings, center caps, and lugnuts. Pricing through Summit Racing or Jegs is just a little better than buying direct from the mfg. Wheel Vintiques 5468 E. Lamona Fresno, CA. 93727 (USA) 209-251-6957 fax 209-251-1620 Summit Racing 1-800-230-3030 |
| Q: | Ralley II wheel paint codes |
| I was going through some archived digests from the Firebird L page and noticed a question regarding paint codes for Rally II's. I have a '67 convertible and was wondering the same thing. By chance did you get any answers you'd be willing to share? | |
| A: |
Yes, I did get the paint code information and I would be happy to share
it with you. I have redone my rims using these paint codes and they
are a dead-on match for the original colors. You will want to get the
paint in laquer, not enamel. The finish from the factory was not all
that shiney and the laquer finish is a perfect match.
Here are those paint codes:
Front (outer rim & spokes): Ditzler Non-smudge Aluminum #DDL-8568
Front (center): Ditzler Wheel Cover Charcoal #DDL-32947
Rear: Ditzler mixing formula:
#475 6 Units
#490 106 Units
#400 272 Units
#487 442 Units
#415 447 Units
#476 457 Units
#491 477 Units
#495 497 Units
#499 1000 Units
Or: Ditzler 1977 Ford Dove Gray #2847
(This color is a close match)
I used all three of these colors on my rims and compared them to a
fifth rim I left untouch. The color match is right on the money.
I also used the wheel masking kits from Year One. They made the
job of masking the wheels a whole lot easier.
You will want to to paint the back and "rim" portion of the rims first with the gray. Then spray the complete front on the rims with the non-smudge aluminum color. Allow the rims to dry for a few days before you go on to the next step. The final step is to mask off the rims were you want the non-smudge aluminum color to stay, and spray the center portion with the charcoal grey. Once you have sprayed the final coat of charcoal grey, allow the paint to set up but not completely dry. Then pull off your maskings. This will prevent the paint from lifting. |
| Q: | Trim Rings |
| What are the correct style trim rings for my Rally II rims? I have seen a couple of versions reproduced. | |
| A: |
From what I've heard and seen, there have been several attempts over the years to reproduce a correct in fit and appearance Trim Ring for the early Rally II applications. (Including some Rally I's) I do know that the original GM Part discontinued years ago and I've seen people asking as much as $500 for a set of (4) of these Trim Rings. (Pt. #9781480). This is the 'Brushed' finish. There was a 2nd Type (Pt. #475019) that was the same except it had a 'Polished' finish. These were both 4 clip, 14x6 Trim Rings.
As far as reproductions, I've seen different versions.... Clip design, outer ridge design, finish and fit are all variations. I'd be interested in hearing from others on this subject and what is currently available.. from who... and how they rate (appearance/fit). |
| Q: | Center Caps |
| Are the center cap`s on the stock rim`s supposed to have the Pontiac emblem, or the letter`s PMD ? Mine are a black backround with PMD in red capitol`s. Which one should it be ? I think I`ve seen both. Thank`s all. | |
| A: | All 67-69 and early 70 Pontiac Rallye II wheels got the black centers with the red letters. The change didn't occur until well into the 1970 production run, and most cars had the red by about January or February 1970. LAte 70, and all 71-72 cars got the red centers with black letters, then in 1973 they went to the polished aluminum with the Pontiac arrowhead emblem. |
| Q: | Rally II Center Cap Installation |
| I have never seen these Rally II wheels completed inperson. Therefore, how would the caps designed for the older wheels fit on the newer (smaller holes) wheels. I am unfamiliar with their construction and therefore, exactly how the caps attach is a mystery to me. | |
| A: | The caps have 3 clips on the back that snap into the round hole as well as 3 other clips that fit into the 3 notches that the larger hole'd wheel has. I guess this is to keep the cap from rotating (I don't see this as being a problem). I have some of the newer wheels as well and the 3 "possitioning" clips just don't do anything on these particular rims. If you have a Year One catalog there is a good drawing on page 325 (winter 99 catalog) of how the cap looks from the back as well as these nifty cap locks that keep people from snatching them. |
